Royal Dornoch - New 7th hole in progress

[James Brown]

To all of the "what the hell" comments, I will say these changes have been contemplated for a long time and were embraced enthusiastically by the membership after extensive debate.  I was there at the club the week they were voted on and all the members I spoke with had nothing but informed views on these questions, which were all the buzz.  It was interesting to see the governance process of a great club in action from just outside the ropes, so to speak.  The 7th green is pretty cool now, but the 7th hole was really only notable from the tee for being really long and was the plainest on a course with so many great holes.    The  hole will certainly be more interesting.  It will just be new. 

[Rich Goodale]

Will it have any impact on the 8th, a different tee???

Yes, Peter, and I don't think it will be pretty, or strategic, but I could be wrong. Today you need a well sculptured draw off the tee to get the ball close to a shot amongst great hillocks to a very difficult green.  If the 8th tee is brought near to the new 7th green you'll have to have a massive Nicklausean fade in your repertoire, or you're playing a short par 5.  I'll need to see it before I believe it is an improvement.


Ricardo

[Ted Sirbaugh]

Will it have any impact on the 8th, a different tee???

Yes, Peter, and I don't think it will be pretty, or strategic, but I could be wrong. Today you need a well sculptured draw off the tee to get the ball close to a shot amongst great hillocks to a very difficult green.  If the 8th tee is brought near to the new 7th green you'll have to have a massive Nicklausean fade in your repertoire, or you're playing a short par 5.  I'll need to see it before I believe it is an improvement.


Ricardo

The one thing I don't mind is having more tee shots stay on the upper portion of the 8th fairway. I like how the approach shot looks and plays from up there. However, I'm also not sure how the angle of that drive will play...  feels like it could be a little awkward.. though guess we can't know for sure until it happens

[Jon Wiggett]

Thomas, I disagree with you about the general standard of the 7th. It adds a lot to the golf course especially in the routing and rhythm of the course which is something very few even on here really understand or appreciate. Although you might be right that the hole could be improved when looked at individually the big danger and for me certainty is that the new hole will lessen the course overall. I know many on here will choke at my next comment but where as a course such as Alwoodley is a great example of a course that is greater as a whole than the sum of its parts RDGC fails by a margin in this way and the alterations to seven will I fear only increase this deficit though I hope I am wrong.

To your other point about micro undulations it is something that I have never seen pulled off in any course built after the 1930s though doubles there are examples out there. One of the great things about living up in the Highlands is there are so many courses that are still more or less intact mainly due to a lack of funds to tinker with.

Jon

Jon,
Thanks for the info about micro undulations/history etc. I wonder if anyone can name some examples? Maybe there really aren't any! Nice features, I take your point about lack of £ to tinker with them. A pleasing example perhaps of less can be more?
Bit confused about the top para. Was that really me?
Atb

Thomas, I reread your post and I had misinterpreted the feelings of the club members to that of yours. Sorry about that though the general point I was making about the course being lessened as a whole still stands.


Jon

[David Davis]

Jon,


Remember the members we played with talking about this? I seem to remember them being pretty positive about the changes.


I'm curious what it will do to the 8th hole tee shot actually. I can hit a fade ha ha...though I did birdie that hole on the last visit so I shouldn't be complaining either way.


I'm more optimistic than you are I think. I didn't love that long landing runway of a hole, which we played straight into the wind and if you remember both members seemed to shoot like 100 on it.


The green was really interesting though.

[Jon Wiggett]

David,


I do remember the one member being positive about it the second chap was not a member however. I just think the 7th adds to the course as a whole and suspect the new hole could detract instead. As to your playing the 7th, I recall you hitting two very good shots down the hole just short of the green. I wonder however with you 'fade' how much time we might have spent down the slope looking for balls


On a more serious note though I hear a lot of talk about making the hole more interesting, spectacular, challenging but no one except myself seems too interested on the effect on the course as a whole. A deck of cards made up of just aces makes for a very boring game of poker.


Jon

[Niall C]

Jon
 
How on earth can you say the 10^th is woeful ?! After all in the latest version of the Confidential Guide, 3 out of 4 reviewers gave the course a 10 !! (sorry, just being mischievous). I agree, the 10^th isn’t the best but I wouldn’t call it woeful. Not very good perhaps ? In need of improvement ?
 
Re the 7^th, I think most are agreed that it has a good green but is it that good that you wouldn’t be tempted to redesign the hole ? I like the green but it and the hole in general doesn’t offer much strategy. Nothing wrong with that as such but I’ve generally found the drive to be an exercise in getting it as far up the fairway without much thought or concern as to anything other than getting the ball in the right general direction.
 
You may be correct that the hole adds to the whole by benefitting the rhythm and the pace of the routing but personally I don’t see it. It certainly adds variety in that at least it isn’t yet another hole with a plateau green; and it does have a different feel to the other holes due to its isolation/turf etc.  I’m not sure the different feel is necessarily a good thing though. I also don’t think the switch will impact the rhythm much but the net effect in terms of the changes to the 7^th and 8^th will be the loss of a straight hole (current 7^th) and an additional left to right hole (new 8^th) which arguably gives the course better balance if you believe on all that good stuff.
 
However apart from the 7^th I think it will make the 8^th better also. To me the problem with the 8^th at present is that it’s a drive straight over a cliff where the ball is pretty much going to end up in the right half of the fairway or perhaps the right rough. It seems to me if you are hitting from the right you have more scope to get the ball into other parts of the fairway (not that I’m suggesting you should be able to hit the middle of the fairway, heaven forbid !). It also gives you a left to right hole as I mentioned earlier.
 
Now, when are they going to sort out the problem of all those plateau greens….
 
Niall

[MClutterbuck]

Thomas, I disagree with you about the general standard of the 7th. It adds a lot to the golf course especially in the routing and rhythm of the course which is something very few even on here really understand or appreciate. Although you might be right that the hole could be improved when looked at individually the big danger and for me certainty is that the new hole will lessen the course overall. I know many on here will choke at my next comment but where as a course such as Alwoodley is a great example of a course that is greater as a whole than the sum of its parts RDGC fails by a margin in this way and the alterations to seven will I fear only increase this deficit though I hope I am wrong.

To your other point about micro undulations it is something that I have never seen pulled off in any course built after the 1930s though doubles there are examples out there. One of the great things about living up in the Highlands is there are so many courses that are still more or less intact mainly due to a lack of funds to tinker with.

Jon

Jon,
Thanks for the info about micro undulations/history etc. I wonder if anyone can name some examples? Maybe there really aren't any! Nice features, I take your point about lack of £ to tinker with them. A pleasing example perhaps of less can be more?
Bit confused about the top para. Was that really me?
Atb

It seems 6 holes at Dornoch are an example it could be pulled off after 1930...

[Peter Pallotta]

Yes, a fascinating thread for an outsider.
It's easy to forget that that our present times (this very minute, in fact) will, in a minute's time, be just as much "history" as a minute that happened 80 years ago.   
We here love to detail every golden age change/tweak by an array of the great old architects on an array of old great classics. It's part of "history".
Well, in a little while, a few months or years, so will the "new" 7th hole be part of history.
It's hard to imagine -- but of course, we all *hope* -- that in 50 years' time there will be those interested enough in golf and gca to debate our present as their history. 

Reminds me of what Camus wrote about literature - something like: "If it's too easily accessible and popular -- if it speaks very clearly to the readers of today -- it likely won't speak in the same way to those 50 years from now, and thus can't be considered great; but if it doesn't resonate *enough* with the readers of today, it won't be around/available for others to read even a year from now, and so won't be considered *at all* in 50 years. 
It sure is a fine line...

 

[David Davis]

David,


I do remember the one member being positive about it the second chap was not a member however. I just think the 7th adds to the course as a whole and suspect the new hole could detract instead. As to your playing the 7th, I recall you hitting two very good shots down the hole just short of the green. I wonder however with you 'fade' how much time we might have spent down the slope looking for balls


On a more serious note though I hear a lot of talk about making the hole more interesting, spectacular, challenging but no one except myself seems too interested on the effect on the course as a whole. A deck of cards made up of just aces makes for a very boring game of poker.


Jon

Jon,


It's an interesting point of view. Many argue that the best courses, Pine Valley and Cypress have 18 and 17 great holes individually. I personally think Cypress has 18 as well. I don't see them not making for a great run of holes.


I'm in the category that loves Dornoch but thinks it's quite highly overrated when we take for example the set of par 3's into account. The same hole twice playing with the same club in hand. Well not exactly but we discussed this.


I think you may be saying that the flow will be disrupted in which case 7 is kind of a connecter hole as is but keeps the flow moving or something like that. I just find it hard to believe the new hole will not be a huge improvement from an area with the best views on the property with little sacrifice.


You are right I hit my second shot pretty good, and into the bunker on the left hand side of the green. Hit a excellent bunker shot but forgot how to putt and went yet another hole down. Maybe that's why our opinions vary on this hole.


The round may well take 10 minutes longer with he new 7th but that will be because people are taking photos all the way down the hole looking back up the coast line.


The fact that 8 is being changed can't be bad as it's so much like 17 in terms of the same tee shot.


Again Ebert & Mackenzie have done wonderful alterations at the other courses and Tom is from Dornoch so if there is someone with a vested interest in perhaps his favorite course in the world it's going to be him. They are in good hands and I have all the confidence the result will be great.

[Ian Mackenzie]

@ David D regarding..."The round may well take 10 minutes longer with he new 7th but that will be because people are taking photos all the way down the hole looking back up the coast line."
No, because the most popular place to take photos is the 7th tee looking back towards the south. If you want better ocean shots, the 8th tee affords that easily....;-)

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall,


I will start off by saying that I really like RDGC and it has much to commend it. My biggest gripe is probably the same as yours which is it keeps on asking the same question over and over again which becomes tedious and monotone with time. As to 7 it is the only hole on the front nine that goes close to asking the distance question and though it is deplored by many on this site it is something that need to be asked more often than RDGC does even from the daily tees.


If the problem is with the tee to green then it would be more than possible to improve this by added width, better bunkering and some modelling without the need for building a new hole. If it were to open up sea views then gorse removal would do that but then that has nothing to do with improving the course.


I also wonder how far away from the lower holes it will be and if this is a safety concern for them?


However I suppose it will be best to wait and see the result. I hope to be pleasantly surprised at the out come. I do suspect that the 8th tee shot will be improved for the better for the lower handicapper.


David,


I think the round takes long enough without even an extra 10 minutes but the reality is likely to be a longer wait due to golf ball hunting not taking photos.


Jon

[David_Tepper]

Aerial photo of the new & old:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BegWY_BBaei/

[Tim Gallant]

A couple more just put on their twitter page:


https://twitter.com/RoyalDornochGC/status/957674173719105539

[Niall C]

hmmmm........ not sure about the chocolate drop mounding.


Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Is the 8th tee moving as well?
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

hmmmm........ not sure about the chocolate drop mounding.

I'll assume you were kidding.  The "mounds" in the photo are stockpiles of topsoil, probably stripped from the site of the new green.


However, I'm disturbed to see that they are shaping the new green without cutting through the gorse so they can see what it looks like from the tee and landing area.  When I've had to do this in the past* I have sometimes been disappointed in the result, as the green may wind up sitting at a slightly different angle than you envisioned, or you wish it had been higher or lower.


* Sometimes it's necessary to work this way.  On #8 at Stonewall (Old) there was a large erosion control structure between the tee and fairway so you couldn't see anything from the tee until the hole was grassed and the earth dam removed.  On #3 at Sebonack and #17 at Stone Eagle there were 40-foot piles of topsoil in the fairway that blocked the view toward the green, and we had to finish those greens before the stockpiles were gone.

[Niall C]

Yes Tom, I was joking. I’m not quite as big a numpty as some of my posts suggest (IMO of course).
 
Niall

[David_Tepper]

"Is the 8th tee moving as well?"

Thomas D. -

My understanding is the 8th tee will be moved roughly to where the current 7th green is. The gorse behind the current 7th green will be cleared out. The intention is to have most of the tee shots from the 8th tee remain on the upper fairway.

DT

[Niall C]

David
 
I had a look on google earth and I can see how playing to the left (top deck) would be the likely route for most. I can also see how the big hitters might take the straight line for the lower deck (c.230 yards ?). Indeed I wonder how many might be tempted to go slightly right of the direct line ie. next fairway, which might be one of those unfortunate unintended consequences.
 
Tom
 
Might there be an intention to reshape the fairway to suit ? When they (McKenzie & Ebert) shifted the 15^th fairway at Troon, they basically swapped the turf on the existing fairway with the turf on the new, and in doing so reshaped the new fairway at the same time. I wonder if thye have made an allowance for that ?
 
Niall

[David_Tepper]

Niall -

Let's wait to see what the changes to the 8th hole actually look like before jumping to any conclusions about how it will be played. Given how well Tom Mackenzie knows the course, I am sure he is aware of the potential consequences to the changes being made.

DT   

[Niall C]

David


This website is all about frank and honest speculation and misinformation. So why wait to see what happens 


Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

I am still somewhat baffled by this alteration as the same effect could have been achieved by removing the gorse around the present green and possibly a slight re-grading of the land behind the green. I hope the changes to the eighth will be enough of an improvement as I still see no improvement to the seventh.


I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

It would be interesting to know what the original concept for the 8th was. Has it alway been a full slog from the Tee over the fall- off and let the ball bounce down the hill.
Personally I prefer to play an iron to the edge of the plateau which gives an exciting view of the green and a challenging 2nd shot. Unfortunatly I misjudged the distance last time out and left the ball short by 40 yards leaving a blind shot, so I chose to chip it to the edge in preparation for my 3rd shot.
I wonder if the designers have considered this scenario and what would you do to make it "more playable" i.e. less blind.
Nothing - that's part of the risk reward for distance control. Soften the edge - to achieve more viewpoints.
A mixture of both - maybe a lower terrace on the right hand side for the bogey players and leave the left side for distance control and the reward of being closer to the hole?

[Rich Goodale]

Josie and I walked out to the 7th on Hogmanay, and we were underwhelmed by the work done so far.  Other than ocean-view eye candy, the new hole (as per the routing, and as much as we could see--lots of gorse still needs to be bulldozered) will add no strategic interest to the 7th and significantly diminish both the seriously great strategic interest and eye-candy of the 8th, as it is.  I watched Tom Watson play the 8th into a 20-30 mph wind in 1981 and it took him driver/3-wood to reach the green from the tips.  Do we really want to play the hole harder and soul less?


The majority of our membership seems to believe so, and has wet dreams of us overtaking Pine Valley, Augusta, and Cypress Point in the rankings.  Dream on, compadres....