[Garland Bayley]

No home or regular play course is too short (or too easy) unless you play off scratch. Play off a hcp of 1 or more and it's still too long/hard, that's why your a 1 or more! Play off +1 or better and then that's when it becomes too short/easy.
atb

Wrong. Some long hitting, golf addicted, frequent players couldn't shoot 72 on a 3600 yard course.

EDIT
E.g., I used to play Charbonneau every week in my company golf league. The white tees were 3900 yards, and I couldn't break 80. I could reach every par 4 in two with two six iron shots. That is where I discovered I was a wild with the 6 iron as with the driver. I could drive many par 4s with driver or three wood. But flubs shots make up much of the score. So whether a course is too short has nothing to do with your handicap.

[David Davis]

There is certainly no denying that difference in abilities of the rater has a tremendous affect on the end result. From that perspective Golf Digest has a fairly consistent range I guess from the + hcp'er to the 5 at highest. Naturally there are huge differences here and a 5 at one place is nothing like a 5 or better at another.


I've hosted probably a hundred raters here in NL and I can predict almost to a tee what their preferences will be and yes, the best players love the hardest courses, find them the most challenging etc. That being said as I've mentioned before most everyone gets beat up at my home course. Until recently not a single person had ever broken 80. Then a panelist came and played in some of the worst weather we have had in the last few years. He played the back tees in like a 45 mph wind and shot 73. In our club championships the last many years that would of won and we have two guys on the Challenge Tour.


As you can imagine first of all I was rather surprised I mean this is an incredible score on our course if there is no wind. But in conditions that would cancel nearly every tournament, the course is long and some long holes were playing straight into the wind. He's good enough to hit Driver Driver 1 iron and walk off with pars and birdies. So the question is of course what's a player of this caliber going to think of something like Woking, or Swinley Forest or Rye....they will be like pitch and putt courses for him.


On the other side of the spectrum when I organized the BUDA in NL there were people that lost every ball in their bag before they could finish my home course and to a tee they didn't like it.


Which one is right?

[Garland Bayley]

Pietro


... The tight turf issue is often a problem for average golfers because it is more difficult to get the ball airborn.  ...
Ciao

I don't see tight turf as an issue for "average" golfers. Weaker strength golfers maybe, but not average golfers.

[Garland Bayley]

... the carries at Pine Valley are not impossible, and the landing areas are relatively generous.  However, the penalty values at Pine Valley, neutered somewhat since I first saw it, are still enough to frighten the golfer who has dealt with the consequences of a bad shot a couple of times, causing a tighter grip and exponentially increasing trouble from there on out.  Staying comfortable with it is not quite as easy as the posters above have described it, and that is both its appeal, and its potential curse.

Deal the consequences of a bad shot a few times? I can only speak from my experience (which seems to oft correspond to George P). Average golfers deal with the consequences of bad shots most of the time. Our wrong fairways hit in regulation probably matches our right fairways hit in regulation, and trails our rough hit in regulation. I.e. hells half acre would seem not to be a big deal when golf courses are full of hells acreage (rough).

[Garland Bayley]

I'd like to believe you guys, but I've noticed that where our courses don't put out tee markers at all, not many people choose to tee off from the spot where they will just barely be able to make a carry ...

Make the carry of what? I believe you are philosophically opposed to artificial pond, so I assume not them. Carry of rough? Why would carry of rough be an issue from anything but the back tees? Besides rough is always in play to the sides, so why would a player add it to the carry?

[Thomas Dai]

No home or regular play course is too short (or too easy) unless you play off scratch. Play off a hcp of 1 or more and it's still too long/hard, that's why your a 1 or more! Play off +1 or better and then that's when it becomes too short/easy.
atb

Wrong. Some long hitting, golf addicted, frequent players couldn't shoot 72 on a 3600 yard course.

How about at 3,599 or 3,598?
Atb

[George Pazin]

So the question is of course what's a player of this caliber going to think of something like Woking, or Swinley Forest or Rye....they will be like pitch and putt courses for him.

If the course asks the right questions, it matters much less what clubs you're hitting. And the right question is never, where is my drop? I'm hugely biased against courses that result in lost balls, in case you hadn't noticed... so those who cleared their bag on your course and didn't care for it are right and you are wrong....


[size=78%]-----[/size]


If I were playing a course without markers, I can't imagine not teeing off within a few yards of the previous green, regardless of the yardages. I'd never walk backwards and I'd never creep forward to avoid a carry.[/size][/size]What worked for the old guys works for me.

[Garland Bayley]

No home or regular play course is too short (or too easy) unless you play off scratch. Play off a hcp of 1 or more and it's still too long/hard, that's why your a 1 or more! Play off +1 or better and then that's when it becomes too short/easy.
atb

Wrong. Some long hitting, golf addicted, frequent players couldn't shoot 72 on a 3600 yard course.

How about at 3,599 or 3,598?
Atb

I guess I missed you with my update to my post, which I am copying below.

E.g., I used to play Charbonneau every week in my company golf league. The white tees were 3900 yards, and I couldn't break 80. I could reach every par 4 in two with two six iron shots. That is where I discovered I was as wild with the 6 iron as with the driver. I could drive many par 4s with driver or three wood. But flubbed shots make up much of the score. So whether a course is too short has nothing to do with your handicap.

[Thomas Dai]

3,597?
There will be an appropriate yardage somewhere down the line.

Atb

[Garland Bayley]

3,597?
There will be an appropriate yardage somewhere down the line.

Atb

Wrong again. You have to take away the golf course, and average players will still not reach scratch. An architect member of the site, Forrest Richardson, found that the best solution for getting 18 holes he liked on one project was to put in a par 2 where players began from the fringe of the green (the client did not approve that solution). The average player could not get to scratch on 18 such holes. He would not be able to 1 putt from the fringe, but undoubtedly a 3 putt or two would creep in somewhere in the 18.

Put the ball 20 feet from the hole on each green, and the average player might get to scratch on such a par 36.

[Jim Franklin]

It's amazing that Fishers Island and Chicago Golf are 11 and 12 in the US, ahead of LA North, Seminole, Winged Foot West, Riviera, Friar's Head, and The Country Club.
 
 
 I haven't played any of these courses unfortunately. For those who have played most of the above, what makes Fishers and Chicago that good?

All wonderful. I rate them Fishers, LACC, Friars Head, Chicago, TCC, WFW, Riv, Seminole. I do enjoy a good template hole though.

[Kalen Braley]

Seems like we see this every year among the top notch courses.  At the end of the day, its like trying to pick which celeb/actress/model is more attractive....


....with no right or wrong answers just personal preferences.

[Jim Hoak]

Also, take a look at the raw "score" given to each course, I don't have it in front of me, but I recall that the differences are often not statistically significant.  So the difference of being ranked 10 vs. 20 may mean nothing.  They are all in a band.

[Tom_Doak]

I'd like to believe you guys, but I've noticed that where our courses don't put out tee markers at all, not many people choose to tee off from the spot where they will just barely be able to make a carry ...

Make the carry of what? I believe you are philosophically opposed to artificial pond, so I assume not them. Carry of rough? Why would carry of rough be an issue from anything but the back tees? Besides rough is always in play to the sides, so why would a player add it to the carry?

I was referring to a fairway bunker in this post.

[Tom_Doak]

Deal the consequences of a bad shot a few times? I can only speak from my experience (which seems to oft correspond to George P). Average golfers deal with the consequences of bad shots most of the time. Our wrong fairways hit in regulation probably matches our right fairways hit in regulation, and trails our rough hit in regulation. I.e. hells half acre would seem not to be a big deal when golf courses are full of hells acreage (rough).

Garland:  It used to be pretty common for players at Pine Valley to rack up at least one double-digit score every round or two.  One of the first times I played there, my friend Bill Shean [who holds the amateur course record] missed the first green off to the right, and the best he could do from there was an 8; they've cleaned it up quite a bit since then.  Still, Hell's Half Acre is far more difficult when there are three days' worth of footprints through it.

[Garland Bayley]

I'd like to believe you guys, but I've noticed that where our courses don't put out tee markers at all, not many people choose to tee off from the spot where they will just barely be able to make a carry ...

Make the carry of what? I believe you are philosophically opposed to artificial pond, so I assume not them. Carry of rough? Why would carry of rough be an issue from anything but the back tees? Besides rough is always in play to the sides, so why would a player add it to the carry?

I was referring to a fairway bunker in this post.

I won't move forward to make the carry, because I won't typically aim anywhere near a penal fairway bunker. That doesn't mean I won't get in it by accident of course. 

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:  It used to be pretty common for players at Pine Valley to rack up at least one double-digit score every round or two.  One of the first times I played there, my friend Bill Shean [who holds the amateur course record] missed the first green off to the right, and the best he could do from there was an 8; they've cleaned it up quite a bit since then.  Still, Hell's Half Acre is far more difficult when there are three days' worth of footprints through it.

For some of us double digit scores are not a problem. I beat Kalen with a 10 to his 11 on one hole at Sagebrush.  Match play is the way to go. Since I think the best match play courses are those where more holes are won or lost, not halved, it seems Pine Valley fits the bill.

[Terry Lavin]

Deal the consequences of a bad shot a few times? I can only speak from my experience (which seems to oft correspond to George P). Average golfers deal with the consequences of bad shots most of the time. Our wrong fairways hit in regulation probably matches our right fairways hit in regulation, and trails our rough hit in regulation. I.e. hells half acre would seem not to be a big deal when golf courses are full of hells acreage (rough).

Garland:  It used to be pretty common for players at Pine Valley to rack up at least one double-digit score every round or two.  One of the first times I played there, my friend Bill Shean [who holds the amateur course record] missed the first green off to the right, and the best he could do from there was an 8; they've cleaned it up quite a bit since then.  Still, Hell's Half Acre is far more difficult when there are three days' worth of footprints through it.

Great story!  Bill Shean is among the finest men that I've met in the game and I'm sure he didn't let his Irish temper affect the balance of the day. No finer host than he.

[Thomas Dai]

3,597?
There will be an appropriate yardage somewhere down the line.
Atb

Wrong again. You have to take away the golf course, and average players will still not reach scratch. An architect member of the site, Forrest Richardson, found that the best solution for getting 18 holes he liked on one project was to put in a par 2 where players began from the fringe of the green (the client did not approve that solution). The average player could not get to scratch on 18 such holes. He would not be able to 1 putt from the fringe, but undoubtedly a 3 putt or two would creep in somewhere in the 18.
Put the ball 20 feet from the hole on each green, and the average player might get to scratch on such a par 36.

So not wrong then!
As I said earlier, there will be an appropriate yardage somewhere down the line, however short it may be. The individual just has to determine their personal appropriate yardage.
Some of course have such poor coordination or physical/mental limitations that such may be hard to determine.
atb

[Jim Franklin]

Deal the consequences of a bad shot a few times? I can only speak from my experience (which seems to oft correspond to George P). Average golfers deal with the consequences of bad shots most of the time. Our wrong fairways hit in regulation probably matches our right fairways hit in regulation, and trails our rough hit in regulation. I.e. hells half acre would seem not to be a big deal when golf courses are full of hells acreage (rough).

Garland:  It used to be pretty common for players at Pine Valley to rack up at least one double-digit score every round or two.  One of the first times I played there, my friend Bill Shean [who holds the amateur course record] missed the first green off to the right, and the best he could do from there was an 8; they've cleaned it up quite a bit since then.  Still, Hell's Half Acre is far more difficult when there are three days' worth of footprints through it.

First time I played Pine Valley, I mashed a drive on #2 and had 106 to the pin. I hit my 54* wedge perfectly right at it. Caddie says great shot and we walked up to the green. There was a ball mark 3 feet from the hole, but no ball. Optimistically, we looked in the hole. No luck. It had spun off the green into the tiny pot bunker on the left. The bunker was firm with not a lot of sand and my first attempt hit the lip. After four more tries, my caddie says, "you might want to try and hit it out sideways." So I do, chip on and one putt later I walk off with a 10. I tell him you might want to give me that tip four shots earlier next time. And off we go. Ended up shooting an 82 that day. And I got my revenge years later as I eagled #2. PV is an awesome place whether you struggle or not.

[Sean_A]

Sean - I think you're smarter and more insightful than most; that common man, keeping it real bit you do around here is just a ruse. Yes, I believe you do honour the 'to each his own' ethos -- and do care about value for money -- but in your reviews I think you often bury the lede, as it were. As you know, I enjoy your reviews very much; but I'd also like to see you more often make explicit  those insights (as a 'rater') that you tend to keep implicit. I think it would serve as usefully educational function.
Peter

Pietro

My reviews for this site are decidely undertaken without the rater hat on my head.  The numbers I put in for Golfweek and National Club Golfer don't match my personal beliefs or opinions.  I am compelled to follow the magazine formula and this causes a certain degree of variation due to having to report on categories which carry no weight with me. 

Tom

I find it strange that you pin point Harborne for being too short for the smash mouth set when the club never aspired to be of championshipish difficulty.  Tons of courses are short by today's standards.  Shit, I played Sunny Old recently and the pro hit driver/wedge to #10 and he isn't terribly long.  Its places like Sunny Old which have lost their revelance as championship standard courses challenging smash mouth players, not Harborne.  I am sure Harborne would like to attract more visitors, but that lack of attention is due to a poor rep for Midlands golf (and Brum in particular), not any notion that Harborne is too short because if Harborne is too short then the entire country is in trouble.

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Funny, and likely just me: If I read about a 6000 yard course in Sunshine City, Kansas I'm not giving it a second thought; but if I read about a 6000 yard course in Ipswich-upon-Tyne my heart skips a beat and I wax poetic about the spirit of the game. Add wind in Kansas and I'm grumbling about a lack of width; add wind and rain and fescue in the some-or-other Shire and I can't wait to pull on a cable-knit sweater and newsboy's cap and have at it. Bacon and eggs from the clubhouse in Sunshine City - meh. Breakfast sandwich from the house in Ipswich - heaven. The up and coming Governor of Kansas, sure; but the 90 year old Secretary of Candish Heath, now you're talking.
Poor architecture; it has hardly anything to do with anything!

[Kevin Pallier]

Am glad to see Pebble Beach finally heading in the right direction ie: South.


No way it belongs in the Top10 courses in the World esp: at the expense of RM etc.

[Garland Bayley]

Am glad to see Pebble Beach finally heading in the right direction ie: South.


No way it belongs in the Top10 courses in the World esp: at the expense of RM etc.

Actually, given the movements of the continental plates, Pebble Beach is moving north.

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