Which architects built the toughest courses?

[Scott Weersing]

I would weigh in with Pete Dye and Mike Strantz as they build courses that have penal bunkers and such.  Pete Dye did build Whistling Straits and the Ocean Course.


No course is tough if you can hit fairways and greens. But Dye and Strantz courses can make it tough to recover if you miss a fairway or a green.


Here is a list of toughest: [size=78%]https://www.golfdigest.com/story/gd50toughestcourses[/size]

[Carl Rogers]

Classic -


Is Flynn a candidate?  I have never played his courses but the pictures always make them look very difficult.

The Cascades looks simple because it is so picturesque.  Hard to read the greens and hard to get the ball into the hole.

Ballyhack is much much much harder than any Strantz.  I wonder how hard the rest of Lester's Courses are?

[Josh Tarble]

[/size]In defense of Dye I've never seen handicaps that don't travel like a member of a Dye course. I think his reputation influences the course raters. They just aren't quite as hard as they look once you take a deep breath and forget where you are.

I think this is a really good point that Dye's courses are easier than they look.  Once you figure out how to play them, they aren't that bad, just look really tough.


For my money, there's two answers:
1. Steve Smyers builds the toughest good courses.  Old Memorial and Wolf Run are both really tough but present fun shots, just with steep penalties for missed shots.  Even the recoveries somehow remain fun and unique.
 
2. Greg Norman builds the hardest bad courses.  Every Norman course I've ever played has made me want to quit golf.  Just hard shot after hard shot, and unless you're as good as the Shark, there is no let up.  They're typically the epitome of target/placement golf.

[Buck Wolter]

Perhaps it's just the way his courses relate (or don't relate) to the way I play, but I've found Arthur Hills' courses to be the toughest of the more modern designs. In particular, the very awkward approaches into greens on the Hills courses I've played made them difficult. The course I remember particularly vividly in this regard was TPC at Eagle Trace in Florida, which also had water and a narrowness that made it pretty unplayable in wind. The public Legacy Ridge GC here north of Denver is another Hills course I don't rush out to play. Again the word "awkward" describes several of the holes there, and that equates to difficulty for me.

Are we really talking about penal design in this thread?

Doug,


I agree with you about Art Hills. I'm sure he's had plenty of pushovers, but his output in the Southeast is, generally, severe and awkward. Especially the stuff from the late '80's through the mid- to late-'90's. A lot of narrow fairways, water, small greens and strange angles.


And Legacy Ridge near Denver is simply terrible. 6 and 13 are two of the most troubled holes I've ever seen.

Ditto Pevely Farms outside St Louis.

[Jon Wiggett]

Just realised I forgot perhaps the hardest course I ever played on a regular basis which was Nordcenter G&CC's Fream course in Finland. I worked there for two years whilst the Bradford Benz course was being built. It was horrifically difficult off the back with my best round ever (non comp) being 73 and the course record for competition being 76 compared to the par of 72. Lovely setting, in good condition but long and undulating with quite difficult greens.


Jon

[Jeff_Brauer]

Looking at the Golf Digest toughest list posted somewhere on this site in another thread, it looks like Pete Dye has the most courses on that list by a long shot.  Perhaps he is the consensus choice?


Like courses themselves, I believe toughness evolves.  Even if you though Bendelow courses were tough for the day, carrying those 120 yard out fairway bunkers ceases to be a challenge.  On the other hand, assuming an untouched course, putting those 6% greens would be nearly impossible, so it all evens out.

[Ville Nurmi]

Jon,
Nordcenter was definitely the hardest course in Finland.
It went under the knife couple of years ago and it was softened considerably. Not that hard anymore and I think the record is in the 60's nowadaya.
Yours,
Ville

[Jon Wiggett]

Ville,


thanks for the feedback. It is funny but despite it being so hard I have very fond memories of playing it. It is one of those places that on the one hand I would love to get back to but on the other would be worried it would no longer be that which I remember. I also have very fond memories of Finland in general and hope to get back there for a few days to look at the places I knew. I do regret not having played the Benz course.


Jon

[Ian Andrew]

I'll throw a vote in for Desmond Muirhead ... he didn't seem to care if it were actually possible to hit the shots to some of his "art"

[Garland Bayley]

Since the oft stated theoremon this website is that anyone can build a difficult golf course, but only a great architect can build a great golf course, it would seem that the answer to your question would be the bad architects as that would be a corollary to the theorem.

[Ian Andrew]

Some of the most difficult courses I've played, like Winged Foot West, Pinehurst #2 and Oakmont, are actually pretty playable in their normal set-up. if you can find it and potentially hit recovery shots, it's fine, hard, but fine. That's why I've always felt comfortable at Pine Valley. There are not a lot of opportunities to loose balls.


It's forced carries, excessive water, keeping vegetation that creates lost balls. I was left frustrated by The Bears Club in Florida because of all the Palmetto at the edges and all the water in play. I began to hit irons off the tee because I was in a match and it made sense just to stay in the hole as an effective strategy. I found Seminole the day before comfortable and fun.


It all has to do with whether you can keep playing or have to go back into the bag for another sleeve of balls.

[Ed Homsey]

I am not suggesting that Walter Travis designed the toughest courses, but I think it should be noted that he was one of the early voices, if not the earliest voice, in this country for more difficult courses.  As early as 1901, following a month-long golf trip in the UK he wrote an article, pubiished in Golf, that lamented the state of golf in the U.S. as "mostly of a kindergarten order.  The holes are too easy, and here is too much of a family resemblance all through...".  Later, when his changes to the Garden City Golf Club course had their unveiling in the 1908 U. S. Amateur, some declared him as a "penal" designer.  He was known to say that his courses often "appeared easier" than they were. though it is hard for me to imagine that to be true of Hollywood Golf Club, after his 1917 redesign left an untold number of wild-appearing bunkers, highly contoured greens, and championship tees playing over 6900 yards.  None of that would be considered "toughest" these days.

[Thomas Dai]

Didn't Bernard Darwin write about the difficulty of Herbert Fowlers courses back in yee olde days?
Some are not exactly easy even now and that's with titanium and graphite and cavity backs and prov1's and the like rather than with the wooden heads and shafts and animal skin grips and balls that weren't that round that were used back in yee olde times.
Atb