[Jeff_Brauer]

Random thought popped into my head, and its not that I am suggesting that tough courses equals good architecture.  That said, most architects got famous for their tough courses.


Thinking we could divide it up into post 2000, 1975-2000, 1950-1975, and the Golden Age, since its hard to compare between different eras.  Yes, there are overlaps in any demarcation like 25 years.  And, any true historians might go further back.


Not even sure who to put in the Post 2000 era.


1975-2000 would have to guess JN, Dye, and maybe Von Hagge, since he designed for shadows, etc., and not really golf. Some of those steep banked bunkers got really tough.


The obvious 1950-1975 would be RTJ and maybe Dick Wilson.


I am a bit fuzzy on the Golden Age.....yes, Tillie had his man size designs, but was that a constant?  Anyone else out there, like Maxwell who might get consideration?


Would be interested in any guesses as to the primitive age, and of course, any different opinions on any era.  The point is discussion, as always.


I would also guess there may have been some lesser heralded archies in each era who unknowingly built hard courses because they aren't golfers.......

[John Kavanaugh]

For the Golden age I would nominate Jim Foulis.  Quoting Pete Dye, which I take to mean he wished he could build a course this difficult, concerning Glen Echo. "I wouldn't change a thing, even if I wanted to, they wouldn't let me build a course like this today. It's a classic." ~ Pete Dye

[Peter Pallotta]

And if folks happen to know, please also share what those architects might've thought/wrote about in terms of designing tough courses.
I've read so many of the old greats write about principles and playability but I can't remember a single one (well maybe the likes of Vardon and Braid, in a way) who clearly/consciously wrote about creating courses that severely tested good players.

[John Kavanaugh]

Peter,


The Foulis brothers invented a better golf ball so in turn designed courses motivating golfers to buy it. It's always about the money.

[Nigel Islam]

I have always found Donald Ross courses to be rather difficult even from a ball striking standpoint.
1975-2000 I'd suggest Steve Smyers.

[Randy Thompson]

Von Hagge, since he designed for shadows, etc., and not really golf.
Jeff,
 I really have enjoyed your posts and participation over the last ten years but you really come off ignorant by making such a statement! He did a lot of excellent and interesting greens with all types of recovery shots around them. I don`t know all 200+ or so courses he did but most of the ones I visited and played also provided plenty of strategy and interesting alternatives. He loved to intimidate through his designs and he appreciated art to the point you could label him an art freak! Thus, yes, he pushed his teams to incorporate shadows but by no means were they anything close to the driving force behind his designs as you have implied. Especially to the point that they weren`t really golf! I have seen and played a couple that were unenjoyable but I think that is normal when you enter the over 100 design club. Do you really think it is possible to put your heart and soul into 200+ projects? I am sure sometimes client problems develop and there is temptation to take the money and get out as soon as possible. I respect the fact that he wasn`t afraid to take the road less traveled. As you have stated correctly in the past, there was no better salesman in the trade. Sorry, but reading your post reinforces my observations of a major defect in humans. You can do 100 things right and one thing wrong and you will be remembered for only the one thing you did wrong and it wasn`t wrong! I think incorporating or considering shadowing and providing some intimidation have their proper place in golf design but with limits. Did he pass the limits? Maybe, but it`s all subjective and who are we to judge!
 

[Jon Cavalier]

Despite his low overall volume, Mike Strantz built some of the toughest modern courses I've ever played - Stonehouse and Tot Hill are particularly brutal.

[Thomas Dai]

Have to ponder other periods but wasn't James Braid criticised for the greater severity when he re-vamped the likes of Carnoustie and Royal Aberdeen in the 1920's?
And wasn't Herbert Fowler famous/infamous for the length and difficult of many of his courses?
atb

[Jon Wiggett]

I would suggest that for the UK Moor Allerton in Leeds is probably the toughest I have played. It is RTJ's only British design and is all but impossible in anything more than a light breeze to play close to your handicap. Many forced carries combined with raised, narrow, convex greens make it a real charmer. Not a patch on what they gave up.


Jon

[Robin_Hiseman]

In the UK I think Dave Thomas undoubtedly built the most consistently tough golf courses in the modern era.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Von Hagge, since he designed for shadows, etc., and not really golf.
Jeff,
 I really have enjoyed your posts and participation over the last ten years but you really come off ignorant by making such a statement! He did a lot of excellent and interesting greens with all types of recovery shots around them. I don`t know all 200+ or so courses he did but most of the ones I visited and played also provided plenty of strategy and interesting alternatives. He loved to intimidate through his designs and he appreciated art to the point you could label him an art freak! Thus, yes, he pushed his teams to incorporate shadows but by no means were they anything close to the driving force behind his designs as you have implied. Especially to the point that they weren`t really golf! I have seen and played a couple that were unenjoyable but I think that is normal when you enter the over 100 design club. Do you really think it is possible to put your heart and soul into 200+ projects? I am sure sometimes client problems develop and there is temptation to take the money and get out as soon as possible. I respect the fact that he wasn`t afraid to take the road less traveled. As you have stated correctly in the past, there was no better salesman in the trade. Sorry, but reading your post reinforces my observations of a major defect in humans. You can do 100 things right and one thing wrong and you will be remembered for only the one thing you did wrong and it wasn`t wrong! I think incorporating or considering shadowing and providing some intimidation have their proper place in golf design but with limits. Did he pass the limits? Maybe, but it`s all subjective and who are we to judge!

Randy,


Probably guilty as charged, for over stating the case. I actually always liked his courses for their artwork and pushing of limits.  Not being a card and pencil guy, I didn't even mind getting caught in some of his steep bank grass bunkers.  I have just heard a lot of complaints from others.


I am perhaps influenced by the real estate courses I saw him design in Texas, many of which have been softened for members play.  Also, while he never said it wasn't about golf, I have heard him say "its all about the shadows" personally.  Of course, design is more nuanced than that.


When looking for a third architect in the tough courses category for his era, I agree with a post above that Mike Strantz would easily take that position.  I recall taking my clients for what would eventually be the Quarry to see Tobacco Road (and Fazio's Pine Barrens World Wood in FL.  It was a quarry site and they wanted to know what it would look like.  Thumbs down after playing TR, but thumbs up after seeing the Faz version of Pine Valley at WW.  Strantz courses were pretty hard all around.


Robin,


Thanks.  My focus is a bit USA centric, but this is a world wide discussion board, and should have broken into eras and regions.


Wonder who would come up for Australia (other than Mac) and Japan?


But in making the original post, I

[Randy Thompson]

Jeff,
You have restored some of my faith in humans, it`s not easy to admitt when we make  small mistakes.In general, you are correct in classifying him as one the three that built the toughest courses. I am sure if you study the slopes associated with his courses and compare them to others, he would probably finish number two behind Mr. Dye only. As you know, my first involvement with his organiation was the Cliffs a beautiful piece of property but too many forced long carries by today`s standards. It was rated as high number six in Texas in the early years and now not sure if its in the top 100 in Texas. Taste have changed and they will continue to change imo..

[Ed Brzezowski]

Despite his low overall volume, Mike Strantz built some of the toughest modern courses I've ever played - Stonehouse and Tot Hill are particularly brutal.

Agree Jon but don't forget Royal New Kent.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,
You have restored some of my faith in humans, it`s not easy to admitt when we make  small mistakes.In general, you are correct in classifying him as one the three that built the toughest courses. I am sure if you study the slopes associated with his courses and compare them to others, he would probably finish number two behind Mr. Dye only. As you know, my first involvement with his organiation was the Cliffs a beautiful piece of property but too many forced long carries by today`s standards. It was rated as high number six in Texas in the early years and now not sure if its in the top 100 in Texas. Taste have changed and they will continue to change imo..

Randy,


I was in a seminar recently, and they did say that very few people like to change their minds, especially in a public setting, which usually needs to be taken into consideration when speaking to them.   That was a nice reminder not to stick to my guns.


Your post also reminded me that I broke the old saying "No generalization is worth a damn....including this one!"  I like to be precise in my words, but in some cases, devote less time to that when posting in a hurry on the internet.  While it might not seem as important as in business writing, certainly, it doesn't change the effect it creates on the other end of the message no matter where it is.


The contractor for Cliffs (Dee Smith) actually threw me a little bone, as his bid was in the first few months of me opening my office.  For maybe $1000 I did the quantity take off for his irrigation bid.  Later, I defended the course against a lawsuit when a couple plunged off the path on the steep downhill 15th hole.  Sad (one died) but interesting case, including driving that slope full speed to prove the point it was manageable, if sober and paying attention.  Of course, I have played it a few times, too.  Always liked it.


Cheers.

[Kalen Braley]

With my limited exposure compared to many here, its hands down Jack Nicklaus.  Played a few of his and they were all ball busters...


P.S.  Only played one Stranz, Monterey Shore, which I didn't think was tough.  More difficult than average sure, but overall a fun, interesting course I would never tire of playing.

[A.G._Crockett]

With my limited exposure compared to many here, its hands down Jack Nicklaus.  Played a few of his and they were all ball busters...


P.S.  Only played one Stranz, Monterey Shore, which I didn't think was tough.  More difficult than average sure, but overall a fun, interesting course I would never tire of playing.

Kalen,
Play True Blue and Tobacco Road from the tips and then get back to me.  Hell, play 'em NOT from the tips and get back to me!

[Tom_Doak]

Greg Norman has to be in the conversation for building the toughest courses among modern designers. 


Jack Nicklaus had a ten-year period where he built more friendly courses, but I agree that most of his recent work [post-Sebonack] has been very difficult.  He would say that's what his clients have asked for, and that's true a lot of the time.


I think that many of the great Golden Age courses were difficult when they opened, but I do not remember reading many reports of particular courses being "monsters," too severe, etc.  Of course the golf press was much different then, too.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think we can trace "Monster" to 1951 and some Ben Hogan comments.


Could some comment from Rory, Jordan, etc. today prompt a wholesale switch in design paradigms? 

[Jon Cavalier]

With my limited exposure compared to many here, its hands down Jack Nicklaus.  Played a few of his and they were all ball busters...


P.S.  Only played one Stranz, Monterey Shore, which I didn't think was tough.  More difficult than average sure, but overall a fun, interesting course I would never tire of playing.

Kalen:


Agreed that MPCC Shore isn't overly severe - it's probably the "easiest" and also the "most traditional" of Strantz's nine solo designs. But Stonehouse, Tot Hill, and as others noted, Tobacco Road and New Kent are as tough as they come when played at full length.

[Doug Wright]

Perhaps it's just the way his courses relate (or don't relate) to the way I play, but I've found Arthur Hills' courses to be the toughest of the more modern designs. In particular, the very awkward approaches into greens on the Hills courses I've played made them difficult. The course I remember particularly vividly in this regard was TPC at Eagle Trace in Florida, which also had water and a narrowness that made it pretty unplayable in wind. The public Legacy Ridge GC here north of Denver is another Hills course I don't rush out to play. Again the word "awkward" describes several of the holes there, and that equates to difficulty for me.

Are we really talking about penal design in this thread?

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Greg Norman has to be in the conversation for building the toughest courses among modern designers. 

My home course is a Norman design, and the front 9 has a slope of 155!!! (the back 9 is much more fun/playable).

[Kalen Braley]

Thanks for the feedback all,

Given i'm somewhere between medium and short off the tee and in the range of most golfers at 15-20 cap....there are thousands of courses that would be difficult for me (and the average golfer for that matter) from the tips.


 I was trying to compare apples to apples and give examples of courses that are brutal even from the normal "white" tees.

[Mike_Trenham]

How about George Fazio for the 1970s?

[Jim Sherma]

How about George Fazio for the 1970s?

Mike - as I was reading this I kept thinking of George. Hershey East when firm is as tough as it gets from the approach shot in. Other George's I've played are Downingtown and Moselem, both tough from any tees and very tough from the tips. Considering them with the equipment they were designed for is brutal. Throw in the reputation of The National in Canada, Champions Jackrabbit and Butler National I doubt there's a close second, Maybe Dye at PGA West.

[Peter Pallotta]

I don't usually name names, and this name will mean little to anyone outside the Toronto area. But in the early 2000s Boris Danoff seemed to be the go-to-architect for Kaneff Golf, a kind of mini club-links, with six courses. 


One of those courses, Royal Ontario, seemed indicative of the style/approach. Narrow fairways, tall grass, lots of water, many perched greens, 6 sets of tees, and a slope rating from the golds (6700 yards, one ahead of the blacks) of 142.


Remember playing it with a former South African rugby player, 60 years old with bad knees and a still good golf game. He'd played around the world, and didn't enjoy the round at all. He told me why, every step of the way -- and it was one of the first times I thought about architecture.


(The architect went out of his way to find/create the golf holes -- I don't remember now if we walked it or took a cart, but the walks/rides were long and circuitous. The conditions were excellent, though....) 

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