When has "tinkering" worked?

[Ted Sturges]

The juxtaposition of Crooked Stick (built in 1964) and The Golf Club (built in 1967) is interesting.  Both were built by the same architect.  One was tinkered with a great deal over the years, the other was not.  One has dropped in the rankings over the years, the other has not.

Is "tinkering" definitely a detriment?  The only example I can think of where a course was tinkered with and improved in status and standing is Pinehurst No. 2.  Are there other examples where tinkering helped?  What other examples can be offered for the argument against tinkering?

TS

[BCowan]

The Golf Club was tinkered with recently.  Also I have talked to an Ross expert that didn't like the tinkering with #2, note it's falling in GD rankings too. 

[BHoover]

The Golf Club was tinkered with recently.  Also I have talked to an Ross expert that didn't like the tinkering with #2, note it's falling in GD rankings too.

I believe the recent "tinkering" at TGC was done by Pete Dye himself. In other words, he was tinkering with his own design.

[BCowan]

The Golf Club was tinkered with recently.  Also I have talked to an Ross expert that didn't like the tinkering with #2, note it's falling in GD rankings too.

I believe the recent "tinkering" at TGC was done by Pete Dye himself. In other words, he was tinkering with his own design.

He also was the one who tinkered with Crooked, his own design. 

[Brian Finn]

Also I have talked to an Ross expert that didn't like the tinkering with #2, note it's falling in GD rankings too.

Pinehurst #2 ranking in Golf Digest:
2011 - 37
2013 - 40 (63.2606)
2015 - 28 (64.2727)
2017 - 30 (63.8751)

Not exactly plummeting. 

[Ted Sturges]

Yes, Mr. Dye has done some work in the last couple of years at TGC when it was left alone for more than 40 years.  Mr. Dye has done the majority (but not 100%) of the tinkering at CS.  The "tinkering" I was referring to at Pinehurst No. 2 was the early years tinkering by Mr. Ross himself, not the C & C restoration work.

TS

[BCowan]

Also I have talked to an Ross expert that didn't like the tinkering with #2, note it's falling in GD rankings too.

Pinehurst #2 ranking in Golf Digest:
2011 - 37
2013 - 40 (63.2606)
2015 - 28 (64.2727)
2017 - 30 (63.8751)

Not exactly plummeting.

Ok, I thought it was close to top 15 in GD shortly after CC work.  My bad

[Anthony_Nysse]

Judging by pictures, Friars Head has changed a good deal from it's original version. But, as it has matured, these were necessary. Does this fall into the tinkering category? It's certainly has not fallen.

[Tom_Doak]

Tinkering has made nearly all of the courses I've built much better than they would have been.


We just try to do all of our tinkering before we plant the grass.


The best example of ongoing tinkering in the history of golf course design is Woking.

[Pete_Pittock]

I think the historic poster boy is Woking

[Josh Tarble]

When is it tinkering and when is it a renovation?  I'd think one place where tinkering has seemingly paid off is Sleepy Hollow? What about the Bridge on Long Island as well? Those are two that come to my mind.

[Jim Nugent]

I thought TOC is the sum of constant tinkering over centuries.

[David Amarnek]

I believe tinkering has helped, for the most part, over at Gulph Mills.  The work done by Maxwell and Hanse has improved upon the original design by Ross.  This has been well documented on GCA by Tom Paul and Joe Bausch.  Having said that, the work done by Stiles and others is a rather different story...

[Jim Nugent]

Two more courses that were extensively tinkered with:  NGLA and Oakmont.  CBM wrote about the need to work on courses over time, and William Fownes regularly changed Oakmont from its opening up to his death in 1950. 

[Terry Lavin]

I'll nominate the "tinkering" at Shoreacres, which was laid out by Tom Doak and implemented in a relatively seamless fashion over a period of maybe three years, as a great example of the benefits of tweaking. It involved tree removal, fairway widening and the removal of rough grass around greenside bunkers and at the entrance to fairway bunkers. They also added a handful of back tees, but the genius of the work, methinks, has little to do with length. It's more about bringing angles into play from the fairway, expanding vistas which brings sun and wind into play and making the course more difficult by removing the rough grass barriers from bunkers.

[Peter Pallotta]

Who is doing the tinkering?
Why are they tinkering?

Nicklaus going back to Dismal.
C&C going back to the 14th.

Initial mistakes?
Grumpy golfers?
Changes of heart/opinion?
Nervous clients?
Improvements?
Compromises?

Ah - who's to say, when the tinkering is being done by the very same people who thought the work was fine when it opened?

Were they wrong then? Are they wrong now? Or any more right than they were before?

Was anything ever wrong to begin with -- in this work (ie gca) that I've endlessly been told is all "subjective" anyway?

My opinion: too much time, too much money, too much ego, too many cooks, too many demands, too much complaining, and not nearly enough golfers who actually (despite their professed love for the spirit of the game) want to play the course as it lies

[JESII]

Wasn't tinkering the goal at Merion 100 years ago?

[Tom_Doak]

Wasn't tinkering the goal at Merion 100 years ago?

Yes, because Hugh Wilson was enamored with Oakmont, among other places.


But I don't know if he meant he'd like to see others tinker with his work over the decades after he passed away.

[Jim Nugent]

Wasn't tinkering the goal at Merion 100 years ago?

Didn't they wait to place lots of bunkers till they saw where golfers actually hit their shots?  Or am I thinking of NLGA, or both? 

[JESII]

Jim,


That was the story at Merion. Not sure about NGLA, but certainly possible.






Tom,


I think these guys were smart enough to know human nature wouldn't change just because they died.

[Nigel Islam]

Oakmont is actually a good example in itself. Didn't Fownes put bunkers where poorly hit shots went?

[Thomas Dai]

I thought TOC is the sum of constant tinkering over centuries.

You beat me to the keyboard mentioning TOC.
+1

atb

[David_Tepper]

AGNC???

[JESII]

Would even a single person recommend flipping the nines back to the original?

[BCrosby]

Other than moving back some tees and Peter Dawson's unfortunate changes a couple of years ago, TOC has undergone remarkably few changes since 1904/5.


ANGC has undergone many changes, some good, some not so good. A mixed bag.


Bob