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Mark Steffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing Tastes
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2017, 11:09:13 AM »
CourseArchitectYearGD 1985GD 2015
Pine Valley Golf ClubHarry S. Colt, George Crump1919C12
Augusta National Golf ClubBobby Jones, Alister MacKenzie1932C21
Cypress Point ClubAlister MacKenzie1928C33
Pebble Beach Golf LinksDouglas Grant, Jack Neville1919C47
Winged Foot Golf Club (West)A.W. Tillinghast1923C59
Muirfield Village Golf ClubJack Nicklaus1974M615
Oakmont Country ClubHenry Fownes1903C76
Seminole Golf ClubDonald Ross1929C812
Merion Golf Club (East)Hugh Wilson1912C95
Olympic Club (Lake)Willie Watson, Sam Whiting1929C1033
Southern Hills Country ClubPerry Maxwell1936C1129
Shinnecock Hills Golf ClubWilliam S. Flynn, Howard C. Toomey1931C124
Oakland Hills CC (South)Donald Ross, Robert Trent Jones Sr. (1950)1918C1317
Shoal Creek Country ClubJack Nicklaus1976M14102
Baltusrol Golf Club (Lower)A.W. Tillinghast1922C1541
Oak Tree National Golf Club  Pete Dye1975M1651
Oak Hill Country Club (East)Donald Ross; Tom Fazio, George Fazio (1979)1924C1716
Riviera Country ClubWilliam P. Bell, George C. Thomas Jr.1927C1824
Long Cove Club  Pete Dye1982M19139
Los Angeles CC (North)William P. Bell, George C. Thomas Jr., Herbert Fowler (1921)1927C2026
San Francisco Golf ClubA.W. Tillinghast1915C2135
Colonial Country ClubJohn Bredemus, Perry Maxwell (1940)1935C22157
Quaker RidgeA.W. Tillinghast1926C2371
Pinehurst Resort (No. 2)Donald Ross1903C2428
TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium)  Pete Dye1981M2547
Medinah Country Club (No. 3)Tom Bendelow, Roger Packard (1986), Rees Jones (2004)1928C2639
Butler National Golf Club  Tom Fazio, George Fazio1974M2746
Eugene Country Club  Robert Trent Jones Sr.; H. Chandler Egan (1928)1967M28129
Harbour Town Golf Links  Pete Dye1970M29106
Scioto Country ClubDonald Ross1916C3050
Cherry Hills Country ClubWilliam S. Flynn1923C3180
Prairie Dunes Country ClubPerry Maxwell, Press Maxwell (1957)1937C3325
Plainfield Country ClubDonald Ross1921C3472
The Golf ClubPete Dye1967M3636
Peachtree Golf ClubBobby Jones, Robert Trent Jones Sr.1948C3734
Olympia Fields CC (North)Willie Park Jr.1922C3866
Spyglass Hill Golf ClubRobert Trent Jones Sr.1966M3948
Chicago Golf ClubSeth Raynor; Charles Blair Macdonald (1894)1923C4014
Saucon Valley CC (Grace)William Gordon, David Gordon1957C41
Winged Foot Golf Club (East)A.W. Tillinghast1923C4259
Jupiter Hills Club (Hills)  George Fazio1970M42105
Interlachen Country ClubDonald Ross, Willie Watson (1911)1919C4557
The Country Club (Composite)Willie Campbell; William S. Flynn, Howard C. Toomey (1931)1895C4619
Belvedere GCWilliam Watson1927C47
Laurel Valley GCDick Wilson1959C4892
Garden City Golf ClubDevereux Emmet, Walter J. Travis (1909)1899C4949
Congressional CC (Blue)Devereux Emmet, Donald Ross (1930), Robert Trent Jones Sr. (1959), Rees Jones (1989)1924C5082
Firestone CC (South)W.H. Way, Robert Trent Jones Sr.1929C51
Canterbury Golf ClubHerbert Strong1922C52155
Maidstone ClubWilliam H. Tucker, Willie Park Jr. (1925)1899C5398
Point O'WoodsRobert Trent Jones Sr.1958C54
Inverness ClubDonald Ross; Tom Fazio, George Fazio (1978)1919C5569
National Golf Links of AmericaCharles Blair Macdonald1911C568
Bay Hill ClubDick Wilson & Joe Lee1961M57
Pine Tree GCDick Wilson1962M58188
SahaleeTed Robinson1999M59108
Edgewood TahoeGeorge Fazio1968M60
Kittansett Club  William Flynn & Fred Hood1922C6184
Homestead Resort (Cascades)  William S. Flynn1923C62146
CC of North CarolinaEllis Maples &Willard Byrd1963M63191
Crooked Stick Golf Club  Pete Dye1966M6493
Charlotte Country ClubDonald Ross; Ron Prichard (2008)1923C65147
Wannamoisett Country ClubDonald Ross1916C66135
La Quinta Mountain CoursePete Dye1980M67
Aronimink Golf ClubDonald Ross1928C6890
Salem Country ClubDonald Ross1925C69
Pauma Valley CCRobert Trent Jones Sr.1959C70
Desert Forest Golf ClubRed Lawrence1962M71
Atlanta Athletic Club (Highlands)Joe Finger, Rees Jones1967M73112
Coldstream Country ClubDick Wilson & Joe Lee1960M74
Hazeltine National Golf Club  Robert Trent Jones Sr.; Rees Jones (1989)1962M7586
Somerset Hills Country ClubA.W. Tillinghast1918C7673
Trump National Doral (Blue Monster)Dick Wilson, Gil Hanse (2013)1962M77
Atlanta CCWillard Byrd, Joseph Finger1965M79158
CC of DetroitHarry S. Colt1914C80
Wilmington CC (South)Robert Trent Jones, Sr 1960M81193
Meadow Brook ClubDick Wilson1955C82
Old Warson CCRobert Trent Jones, Sr.1955C83
Baltimore Country Club (East)A.W. Tillinghast1926C85127
Mauna Kea Beach Hotel GCRobert Trent Jones Sr.1966M88
Greenville CC (Chanticleer)Robert Trent Jones Sr.1970M89190
Champions GC (Cypress Creek)Ralph Plummer1959C93
Cog Hill GC (No. 4, Dubsdread)Rees Jones, Dick Wilson1964M94
Dunes G&BCRobert Trent Jones Sr.1949C96
Lancaster Country ClubWilliam S. Flynn, David Gordon, William Gordon (1959)1920C98
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Mark Steffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing Tastes
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2017, 11:13:06 AM »
yes, i have issues!!!!    also don't have 1975 but do have a 30yr spread to share and peak at changes from 1985 to 2015.  interesting to see some that were highly considered (saucon grace, a nice course sure... but).  pauma valley dropped from 70 in the US to 39 in CA in golf digest's eye over this period as an example there too.
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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing Tastes
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2017, 11:26:02 AM »
Here is Golf Digest's all time roster (1966-present).


Warning - like most things Golf Digest these days, it's not easy to read.


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/100greatestcourses_roster
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PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing Tastes
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2017, 11:38:45 AM »
Quote from: Dan Herrmann on August 28, 2017, 11:26:02 AM
Here is Golf Digest's all time roster (1966-present).


Warning - like most things Golf Digest these days, it's not easy to read.


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/100greatestcourses_roster


Interesting... a huge selection of courses, for sure.


Noticed White Bear was ranked for two years, as a member of the top 200 "toughest courses" in 1967-1968. Thanks to technology and at less than 6,500 yards today I doubt it would crack any "toughest" lists today!
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H.P.S.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing Tastes
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2017, 12:21:08 PM »
This thread is why I loath the phrase "the dark ages" in terms of golf course architecture.  Not every course built from 1940-1980 was bad.  They may just be a different style of golf....like a different style of art. 

Regardless of all of the minutia that we love to discuss here, the simple rule is that the best sites (when put in competent hands) create the best courses and the elite are usually when the best sites are placed in the hands of the best architects. Further, when a golfer can enjoy nature and stunning surroundings, in addition to his golf game, he will always enjoy it more.  As great of a game that golf is, it will never beat the awesome feeling and peace of being in beautiful natural surroundings, like 15-17 at Cypress Point.

When I look at the Dick Wilson courses on the 1975 list, I am struck by 2 things -first, that most of his courses were in the final 30 on the list anyway and second, how many of these courses sit on fairly boring property.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 12:22:53 PM by Michael George »
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"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Billsteele

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing Tastes
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2017, 12:46:28 PM »
Michael-Sticking with the Dick Wilson theme, it is surprising to me that Coldstream is on the list but NCR (South) is not. To me, NCR (South) is a much better design and property.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Changing Tastes
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2017, 12:47:18 PM »
Quote from: Brian Finn on August 28, 2017, 10:39:24 AM

Notable omissions from the 1975 list (2017 GD rank): 

NGLA (8 )
Fishers Island (11)
Crystal Downs (12)
Garden City (46)
Camargo (52)
Baltusrol Upper (61)
Winged Foot East (62)
Somerset Hills (64)
Shoreacres (66)
Milwaukee CC (71)
Quaker Ridge (76)
Valley Club (80)
Yeamans Hall (87)
Essex County (91)


Wow.  We have done the restoration work on nine of those!
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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing Tastes
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2017, 02:43:29 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on August 28, 2017, 12:47:18 PM
Quote from: Brian Finn on August 28, 2017, 10:39:24 AM

Notable omissions from the 1975 list (2017 GD rank): 

NGLA (8 )
Fishers Island (11)
Crystal Downs (12)
Garden City (46)
Camargo (52)
Baltusrol Upper (61)
Winged Foot East (62)
Somerset Hills (64)
Shoreacres (66)
Milwaukee CC (71)
Quaker Ridge (76)
Valley Club (80)
Yeamans Hall (87)
Essex County (91)


Wow.  We have done the restoration work on nine of those!


And we have a contender for the 2017 Schultzie Awards. The single exclamation mark may hold it back.
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Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing Tastes
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2017, 03:06:23 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on August 28, 2017, 12:47:18 PM
Quote from: Brian Finn on August 28, 2017, 10:39:24 AM

Notable omissions from the 1975 list (2017 GD rank): 

NGLA (8 )
Fishers Island (11)
Crystal Downs (12)
Garden City (46)
Camargo (52)
Baltusrol Upper (61)
Winged Foot East (62)
Somerset Hills (64)
Shoreacres (66)
Milwaukee CC (71)
Quaker Ridge (76)
Valley Club (80)
Yeamans Hall (87)
Essex County (91)


Wow.  We have done the restoration work on nine of those!

NGLA, Crystal Downs, Garden City, Camargo, Shoreacres, Milwaukee CC, Valley Club, Yeaman's and Essex County?
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Mr Hurricane

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Changing Tastes
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2017, 03:08:31 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on August 28, 2017, 02:43:29 PM
Quote from: Tom_Doak on August 28, 2017, 12:47:18 PM

Wow.  We have done the restoration work on nine of those!

And we have a contender for the 2017 Schultzie Awards. The single exclamation mark may hold it back.


I honestly had no idea. 

When I first got hired at Camargo, I told them it was already a top 100 course, it just needed some people to notice it.  The same is true for most of the others on that list.  Most have done good work in the past 20 years, but the bulk of it is just putting back the good work somebody did 90 years ago.


Jim F:  We don't work at NGLA.  [I don't think they have a consulting architect, actually.]  We've been working at Somerset Hills for 10 years.
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Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing Tastes
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2017, 03:18:13 PM »
Did some internet digging and found a link to a spreadsheet with all of the courses in GD's lists back to the 1975 list.  This link was posted in a Golfclubatlas discussion in 2012 by Jim Colton, but the link still works.  I think Jim created this spreadsheet himself, so full credit goes to him for this amazing spreadsheet!


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtI2sGAMtMU9dHpFdjBFVmJWLW5fWmF3ZG1IRDcya0E
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 03:30:19 PM by Bill Shamleffer »
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“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing Tastes
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2017, 03:46:59 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on August 28, 2017, 03:08:31 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on August 28, 2017, 02:43:29 PM
Quote from: Tom_Doak on August 28, 2017, 12:47:18 PM

Wow.  We have done the restoration work on nine of those!

And we have a contender for the 2017 Schultzie Awards. The single exclamation mark may hold it back.


I honestly had no idea. 

When I first got hired at Camargo, I told them it was already a top 100 course, it just needed some people to notice it.  The same is true for most of the others on that list.  Most have done good work in the past 20 years, but the bulk of it is just putting back the good work somebody did 90 years ago.


Jim F:  We don't work at NGLA.  [I don't think they have a consulting architect, actually.]  We've been working at Somerset Hills for 10 years.

8 out of 9 isn't a bad guess. I need to see Somerset again.
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Mr Hurricane

Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing Tastes
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2017, 04:16:35 PM »
Quote from: Bill Shamleffer on August 28, 2017, 03:18:13 PM
Did some internet digging and found a link to a spreadsheet with all of the courses in GD's lists back to the 1975 list.  This link was posted in a Golfclubatlas discussion in 2012 by Jim Colton, but the link still works.  I think Jim created this spreadsheet himself, so full credit goes to him for this amazing spreadsheet!


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtI2sGAMtMU9dHpFdjBFVmJWLW5fWmF3ZG1IRDcya0E

If courses were stocks, and you wanted low volatility, you'd have to love The Golf Club. Any others?
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