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JReese

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2017, 03:18:39 PM »
What's more hateful......an offhand offensive joke/remark or excluding people from joining a club based on sex/religion/race?
"Bunkers are not places of pleasure; they are for punishment and repentance." - Old Tom Morris

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2017, 04:26:09 PM »



This board always seems to be critical of "elitism" and "tradition" and lack of access and the concept of people being gentlemen (and yes gentle-ladies).  It also seems to have a problem with "rules" that clubs seek to enforce on it's members and guests. Too stuffy, not needed etc etc.   


I have no clue as to what the "punishment" is because it is a hypothetical.  You are going to put it in "club rules" that uncivil, hateful behavior won't be tolerated?  racist behavior? sexual harassment? 


Again, it is the role of the admissions committee.  It is assumed that other members and their guests (by virtue of an invite) know the rules of proper decorum. 




Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2017, 04:37:54 PM »
What's more hateful......an offhand offensive joke/remark or excluding people from joining a club based on sex/religion/race?


In Chicago alone, there are:


1. All male clubs
2. Jewish clubs
3. Catholic clubs
4. WASP clubs


This thread is about hate speech and I would hope that it is not tolerated at ANY club.

noonan

Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2017, 06:15:28 PM »
Snowflakes might melt. Man up. Men join clubs to be.....MEN!

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2017, 08:51:12 PM »
.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 09:20:32 PM by Mike Wagner »

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2017, 10:12:29 PM »

Again, it is the role of the admissions committee.  It is assumed that other members and their guests (by virtue of an invite) know the rules of proper decorum.


Tom Paul and I had a phone call about Tom MacWood publishing the death certificate of George Crump here on GCA. Tom felt that it was respectful to hide the past for the benefit of the family. I had the view that it is beneficial for public awareness that Mental Heath issues are real, and can cause real pain in seemingly normal people and families.

My wife will sometimes get frustrated with the views of her parents towards our Autistic son (in the past, they are no longer with us). My response was that "it was a different generation", and their views did evolve, eventually. This topic of "generational awareness" was easy for me, as my parents were gone when my son was born.


I have friends that have been members of some fancy Philly clubs as a son, junior member, and now a member for over 40 years. There is no way that an Admissions Committee can predict out 40 years. Life evolves....
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2017, 12:36:40 PM »



Mike


We are not talking "views" that we may or may not like and that evolve over time.  The topic is inappropriate and hateful speech/actions and that again is the role of the club to monitor.  They have no right to monitor "my views".


The best place for a club to insure that hateful actions don't occur is through the admissions committee.  I know many here decry the "seven letters" and two sponsors and true investigation of candidates but it does serve a purpose. 


Again perhaps a trite notion but the club is for gentlemen/ladies and the admissions committee is supposed to insure that. 


 

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2017, 01:11:54 PM »
C'mon - no kidding it exists.
When are certain people (and just about every major news outlet) going to realize that we don't legislate morality?  News flash ... we are always going to have hateful idiots in this world .. period.  Now deal with it ..and when I say deal with it, I mean call that POS making the remarks out in public .. do it.  Better yet, take him out back. Men need to be men again ... and the PC culture only makes racism and the tools to reduce it worse.
Of course there's racism, sexism, etc. ... and guess what, you'll never flush it all out. We can, however, reduce it ... that's proven.  If you're looking for perfection rather than progress (think media .. biggest hypocrites around), you'll be disappointed for a lifetime.  If you're looking for progress, we should be proud of who we are as a country .. and we'll keep going.
He's making us aware that all of this exists?? Well, no shit.  We've all seen it ... and guess what, I've seen people called out right then and there.  People with strong spines.  That's how things change ... not by a board ... they pour gas on the fire.  Peers calling peers out is how this stuff stops.  Can you imagine someone in the situation described calling the person out .. publicly humiliating them??  I can ... and I've seen it ... and it's powerful. It takes THAT kind of courage. 
..and Corey - good luck with monitoring shit like this before it happens.  What a laugh!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 01:58:01 PM by Mike Wagner »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2017, 02:05:55 PM »
Man up. Men join clubs to be.....MEN!


Says the guy who once started a thread just to whine that a course didn't let him hit his own balls onto their range without paying...
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2017, 02:07:47 PM »
My guess is that Jim C is not an idiot, and doesn't need to be told about club rules and committees etc or to be informed that no rationale/decent person would tolerate hate speech. My guess is that he is telling us that, in his recent experience, he finds that it *does* go on and that it *is* being tolerated -- and so he just wanted to bring that out into the open lest we all get too smug and complacent. Reading some of these posts, it's as if some folks believe that golf clubs *never* excluded Jews or Catholics or Blacks -- and as if that (well documented) exclusion was just accidental/innocent and reflected nothing at all about the broader culture...
Peter   


C'mon .. no kidding it exists.


Look, you don't legislate morality.  I understand every news media outlet wants you to believe we can, but we can't.  We're always going to have hateful moronic idiots in the world .. period.  Now deal with it ... and when I say deal with it, I mean calling the POS making the remarks right then and there .. in public.  Do it.  Better yet, take him out back.  Men need to be men again, and the PC culture only makes racism and the tools we have to reduce it worse.


All this crap is always going to exist - we can never flush it all out.  We can, however, reduce it .. that's proven.  If you're looking for perfection as the media is, you'll be disappointed for a lifetime.  If you're looking for progress, then I think we should be proud of this country .. and we'll keep going forward.


Making us aware it exists?? What a load .. we all know it.  We've all seen it ..and guess what, I've seen people called out right then and there.  People with strong spines.  That's how things change .. not by a board - they pour gas on the fire.  Peers calling peers out is how this stuff stops.  Can you imagine someone in the situation described calling the person out .. publicly humiliating them for their remarks??  I can .. and I've seen it .. and it's powerful.  It takes THAT kind of change.


..and Corey ..good luck with thinking a committee can stop this kind of thing before it happens.  Complete nonsense.

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2017, 02:25:33 PM »



I have been fortunate to play in many fine places with many fine people.  I don't have the experiences that some others on this board seem to have and was giving a reason as to why this might be the case. 
















Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2017, 07:38:13 PM »
Peers calling peers out is how this stuff stops.  Can you imagine someone in the situation described calling the person out .. publicly humiliating them for their remarks??  I can .. and I've seen it .. and it's powerful.  It takes THAT kind of change.



It was actually my wife that had a incident with an older golf club member. He used some "dated language" to describe my Autistic son. I was not there as I was playing golf with my older son, as golf junkies do. :)


I am 6'6" inches tall, weigh 215 pounds and have been described as an "ugly nasty white guy" by my basketball friends :) I think I made the right decision to not challenge that older member.



My wife belongs to the "Broadway Club". I married into it and trust me, they make me feel like an outsider. She did a TEDxBroadway on the 5-7 year process for our son being accepted at Broadway. I recognize that it is a 14 minute video and you are busy, but you really do need to watch the entire video to understand the story.


https://www.tedxbroadway.com/talks/2017/1/11/theater-for-all-katie-sweeney


I hope this thread does not devolve. I love golf, and I see the value in European/Maine/Yale style memberships. I live in New York City for 28 years, so there are many models out there that don't fit our family style. That is cool with me. I have played with an Autistic father that took including his Autistic son too far, in my opinion.


It is a delicate balance, for me.


PS - Obviously I don't limit "Hate Speech" to black/brown/white topics.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 07:42:05 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2017, 07:47:51 PM »
I happen to live in an area that is not very diverse, rural, extremely conservative, and, unfortunately, has a lot of people that I would call as basically ignorant of different cultures, religions, differing ideas, and so on.  At our club, I often hear remarks that I find personally offensive to my values.  I’m not sure what “hate speech” is, but don’t think most of these biased, even racist, comments would qualify.  If said to me, I’d try to think of a comment that might get through and point out another point of view.  If truly hateful, I’d throw them out.  However, to me one of the beauties of golf is that one can have a good time playing with people one probably wouldn’t associate with in any other setting.  All of my golf buddies would not share my political views.  So what if we have fun?  Political correctness is entirely subjective and a poor priority for golf clubs unless the intent is to only have only “your kind of people” involved as members, which of course is biased on its own terms.  I say let the members sort out what is acceptable, confront anyone that goes beyond reasonable, and live and let live. 

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2017, 07:56:31 PM »
However, to me one of the beauties of golf is that one can have a good time playing with people one probably wouldn’t associate with in any other setting.


Totally agree.


I once played with a guy at Yale that cleaned out the mice cages at one of the Yale labs. Add in the PGA pros, fancy Yale graduates, fancy professors, and that is a cool interesting membership - to me. Add in a great golf course, and you have perfection - for me.


Oh yea, I am headed to New Haven tomorrow. :)
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2017, 08:05:56 PM »
Are these not supposed to be gentlemens and ladies clubs?
Have some standards.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2017, 05:21:47 PM »
It would be hypocritical to run a club that didnt allow Blacks or Jews to be members and then ban hate speech.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2017, 05:54:46 PM »
Call me a snowflake, disparage my liberal political leanings, and impugn my masculinity,  but I would have no interest in playing at a private club which did not accept African Americans, Jewish people, or other ethnic groups.  If the same clubs had members who routinely spoke in racial and ethnic slurs, insulting language toward women and homosexuals, and failed to have compassion toward people with intellecual and developmental disabilities, there is virtually nothing the club could offer me that would make me consider playing golf there.

Charles Lund

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2017, 10:17:07 PM »

Oh yea, I am headed to New Haven tomorrow. :)


Played with a Green Card immigrant from the Czech Republic today at Yale. He seemed to genuinely love America, never took the SAT, and invited me to visit his home town, as long as he does not have to go with me.

 :)
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2017, 10:30:25 PM »
    I realize this is way off topic, and will understand if it is deleted or ignored.  But, in these times, I think it is worth discussing.
    Hypothetical -  A member utters a blatantly racist epithet in the men's grill (maybe alcohol is involved).  A complaint is registered and the board is asked to decide if the offender should be reprimanded - say suspended for a period of time.  You are on the board.  What say you?
   I don't believe this would be tolerated in the workplace, the classroom, or in most homes.  Should it be tolerated at a club?  I say no.
   p.s.  I'm afraid this happens way more than many are willing to admit.
Jim,
This will probably stir it.  I'm not saying I condone the epithet.  BUT..it is a private club and it is a locker room....I would think no one other than the club has the right to decide what they should do.  HOWEVER, I would wager that the dude who complained will have a difficult time getting a game and will probably leave that club before the guy who made the epithet...JMO...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2017, 11:25:42 PM »
I'd say how it is handled depends on the culture of the club, whether this is known to be a chronic issue for the individual making the utterance, if multiple members made the complaint, and who was present when the individual spoke using the racial epithet, such as if it was directed specifically at a member from that racial or ethnic group.

Depending on these considerations, the board might send the member a letter communicating they took up the complaint and will consider disciplinary action if the behavior persists.  They could also direct the individual who made the complaint if the board considered a direct attempt to communicate about the issue wth the person the preferred action rather than making complaint.

One issue is how the club views what a member's responsibilities should be for dealing with an issue with another member, particularly if they see the alleged infraction as out of character for the individual involved.

A board which trivializes the potential impact of abusive and hateful language runs the risk of offending members who find this kind of language reprehensible by enabling this behavior at the club.


Charles Lund



Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2017, 01:50:50 AM »
Snowflakes might melt. Man up. Men join clubs to be.....MEN!


This thread is about language many of us recognize as racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. The idea that this has anything to do with "being a man"...

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2017, 02:51:25 AM »
I However, to me one of the beauties of golf is that one can have a good time playing with people one probably wouldn’t associate with in any other setting.  All of my golf buddies would not share my political views.  So what if we have fun?  Political correctness is entirely subjective and a poor priority for golf clubs unless the intent is to only have only “your kind of people” involved as members, which of course is biased on its own terms.  I say let the members sort out what is acceptable, confront anyone that goes beyond reasonable, and live and let live.


I agree entirely that one of the greatest things about golf is that you mix with people from all stratas of society on equal terms who, under normal circumstances, one would never meet, let alone socialise with.


Inevitably, on occasion one will be paired with someone whose political/social views, or even just their manner, offend your sensibilities. There are one or two outspoken racists at our club - most people, including myself, simply avoid their company.


I hate "political correctness" despite having left wing political sympathies. Views which one finds offensive should be countered with argument or social ostracisation - not official sanction or expulsion.








Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2017, 09:45:12 AM »
If the OP was about actual instances, wouldn't the correct response not be to ask an apparently rhetorical question but to name and shame the club(s) in question?


 8)  Mark,


Its individuals involved in the misconduct... or serious misconduct if that's what it'd be defined as, hard to justify lumping perhaps hundreds of uninvolved club folks together and shame a club...
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Steve Salmen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2017, 12:29:08 PM »
This is the stupid type of discussion that distracts from the more important topics, like good jobs. Sticks and stones.....

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should Hate Speech Be Tolerated At A Private Club
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2017, 07:59:31 PM »
Call me a snowflake, disparage my liberal political leanings, and impugn my masculinity,  but I would have no interest in playing at a private club which did not accept African Americans, Jewish people, or other ethnic groups.  If the same clubs had members who routinely spoke in racial and ethnic slurs, insulting language toward women and homosexuals, and failed to have compassion toward people with intellecual and developmental disabilities, there is virtually nothing the club could offer me that would make me consider playing golf there.

Charles Lund


Seconded.
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