5 best sets of greens in GB&I

[Sean Walsh]

Glad the Eden is getting plenty of love. Some wonderful stuff out there. Favourites 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 11


I may have missed it but I'm surprised The New isn't getting any attention especially if we're talking subtlety. Hardest greens to read on the property and they mix that subtlety up very well with the more dramatic greens like the double, 13 and 4. The 6th is also a fine example of a bunkerless green complex. I was initially doing this post from memory but wanted to check something about the 4th and ended up in the same kind of reminiscing loop I get into when I search Paul Kelly songs on You Tube.


It took me a while to warm to The New but, for very different reasons, I eventually found myself liking it almost as much as the good parts of the Eden. The Eden is the romantic, The New is the classic.


I have regrets over both. For The Eden it's never seeing it in its true splendour. For the New it's not appreciating what is there until I was nearly due to leave.

[Mark Pearce]

Would the Eden have been in the conversation before it was vandalised?


I like Sean's mention of Elie. TOC should be a shoe in.  Prestwick should be in any such list.

[Ken Moum]

Where else can this feature be found - and more interestingly, is it on any other Colt course?
5th at Muirfield
A couple at Royal County Down (can't recall hole numbers)
Both I presume by Mr Colt
Nice feature. Bit different to the norm.
Atb

Could we call it the "Reverse Biarritz," or "Reverse Gate," in homage to the West Links?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ganton's greens fit their surrounds so well and "piece" excellently into the strategy of their holes. As Ally notes, the contour doesn't always grab you -- mainly because the slopes typically do most of the work. So you don't notice.

Here: I randomly selected hole from their flyover menu. I dare you to not be impressed with this green (complex):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pCsYXM8yUNI

Or just pick another hole or two's flyovers. Just the way they sit at grade level...so perfect.

Woking is another great call. I came to Woking after playing pretty much all the Stockbroker Belt courses (many multiple times). Those greens were a revelation.

[Peter Pallotta]

I wish I knew even a little about this subject.
If I did, Mark's point would be a terrific thread on its own.
"Great greens that don't have the obvious/usual characteristics of such"
I know that we usually call those types of greens 'more subtle' or 'understated' -- but maybe the famous examples of *those* aren't actually all that great; while there may be greens that are neither overtly contoured nor dramatically understated and that *play* great.

[Sean_A]

The group has named pretty much all of the ones I thought of when I saw the title.


Ally, the one I did not think of was Ganton ... it's been a long time since I have been there, and I don't remember the greens as a primary feature of the course.  I agree that Portrush belongs in the conversation, even though the greens are more built and more subdued than most of the others in discussion.

Tom,


I hope you can get back to Ganton sometime soon. Before my visit, I knew of the soil, grand bunkering and the strategy it created. But I wasn't expecting such a wonderful set of elegant greens, a few with some major internal contours but many with a large amount of micro-movement, creating a number of really interesting putts and pin positions. It all sat in to the land so perfectly as well.


Also agree on Portrush - they are more obviously built than the other courses I mentioned. Perhaps the perfect example of Colt's "modern" design at the greens and also why recent Colt imitators just don't quite match him.

Like Tom, I am struggling to see Ganton's greens as anything like top 5.  Ally, what gives?

Ciao

Tom didn't say that, Sean. He said he couldn't remember them very well. Neither can you, it seems...

Ally

If Ganton's greens were a top 5 set Tom would have better remembered the greens....I can assure there is little wrong with his memory    To me, Ganton's greens are akin to Sunningdale's. When firm and running decently, they can cause problems for the unware, but once you play the course a decent number of times they shouldn't be anymore problematic than a large number of sets. 

To give an idea of just how many cool sets of greens there are...nowhere and unknown Welshpool.  To me, these are far more interesting than Ganton's, but the course is unheard of so no exposure....top 5 is something special.






















Ciao

[Ian Andrew]

I`m going to throw in my support for Elie - greens like the 3rd were very clever.


I think the first 10 greens on the Eden Course are my favourite greens in GB&I.


I too like Deal ... wow ... so many stand out.

[Thomas Dai]

.......
To give an idea of just how many cool sets of greens there are...nowhere and unknown Welshpool. ......

And Welshpool is only 40 or so miles from Kington.
And there's the 'very original' Knighton (by Harry Vardon) on the way between them. They'd make a terrific days golf.
atb

Kington - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html
Welshpool - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63739.msg1518730.html#msg1518730
Knighton - http://knightongolfclub.co.uk

I don't usually like re-showing photos but these are so cool.




















Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Let me get this straight, Sean:


You are assuring me that Tom Doak's memory is fine even though he himself hints that it isn't. And because of that, you are implying that he must be 100% correct (because he's Tom Doak) and I must be 100% wrong (because I'm not)


Got it, thanks.


Because I seem to be more charitable with people's opinions other than Tom's, I'm going to assume that you just can't remember much about Ganton's greens from your one round on a dank day a few years ago. And that you are entitled to your opinion that they are not a top-5 set. And I'm also going to say that from the photos, there are some cool looking greens at Welshpool so I should indeed get there, even though they appear to be a million miles away from the sophistication that the greens and their surrounds at Ganton provide.


Yours, as ever,
Ally

[Sean_A]

Let me get this straight, Sean:


You are assuring me that Tom Doak's memory is fine even though he himself hints that it isn't. And because of that, you are implying that he must be 100% correct (because he's Tom Doak) and I must be 100% wrong (because I'm not)


Got it, thanks.


Because I seem to be more charitable with people's opinions other than Tom's, I'm going to assume that you just can't remember much about Ganton's greens from your one round on a dank day a few years ago. And that you are entitled to your opinion that they are not a top-5 set. And I'm also going to say that from the photos, there are some cool looking greens at Welshpool so I should indeed get there, even though they appear to be a million miles away from the sophistication that the greens and their surrounds at Ganton provide.


Yours, as ever,
Ally

No, I am saying that if Ganton's greens were that good (as in top 5 good) it is highly likely that Doak would have remembered them as a highlight of the course. In my experience, Doak's memory is very good for this stuff, but mabe I wrong.  I have a decent memory for Ganton's greens from my two games there, one of which was on brilliant day with the course in perfect nick.  I will say it made a big difference as is the case most subtle greens...they need some speed and firmness to properly appreciate.  However, nothing made me think they were a top 5 set.  They are good in the way many heathland greens are good.  I especially liked the domed 17th, roly poly 8th and 10th with the green tied to the bunkers very well. Maybe we look for different things.  For instance, at Welshpool I really like how the greens spread near the edges of drop-offs, but are essentially lay of the land greens.  I think you you grossly underestimate how this link between the greens and surrounds can effect putting, chipping and approaching at Welshpool.  I like subtlety as much as the next guy, but that alone is not going to make me think a set of greens is great.  To each is own.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean, I'm not grossly underestimating anything. I spend perhaps too much time trying to hide transitions at the edges because I think it so important. In fact, I've just spent the last 4 hours drawing a green that does just that.


Valid point that Tom would usually remember something he would consider top-5. But don't you think that he just may have missed something on one day in his life?


The greens at Ganton really aren't that subtle. They just sit beautifully in to the land and tie in to the bunkers and surrounds perfectly. They actually have some significant contour (which clearly can't be seen in the flyovers Mark linked to).


The Welshpool greens look like a ton of fun to play. The ones posted are genuine lay of the land surfaces - in other words they appear to have no shaping on the greens themselves. They are less sculpted than Gantons. There is therefore less design in them. Chalk and cheese. I bet I'd love them to play on. I'd probably admire them less though.


In the end it comes down to opinion. Tom understood the other choices and left his mind open on Ganton. You just don't agree. Doesn't make you right though.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ally,


whilst I agree with most of what you say especially about a green needing to sit within its landscape I do not agree about tying in with the surrounds. GCAs spend too much time on this when in fact as Sean's examples show it is not at all important. Yes, it is a style but not a principle of good GCA which alas has been forgotten by most these days.


Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,


whilst I agree with most of what you say especially about a green needing to sit within its landscape I do not agree about tying in with the surrounds. GCAs spend too much time on this when in fact as Sean's examples show it is not at all important. Yes, it is a style but not a principle of good GCA which alas has been forgotten by most these days.


Jon

Jon,


I partially agree - a tie-in does not need to mean long waves. It can still be sharp and obvious although this usually works best when slightly hidden rather than in full view at the front. Either way it has to sit well and be pleasing to the eye.


My point was that Ganton's tie in beautifully, mostly at grade but with really perfect slopes that flow in and over the bunkers.


To me, hiding the tie-ins is an art form. Attempts both at natural tie-ins and at sharp ones can look really poor when not done well. GCA's have to spend time thinking about it. Otherwise it's more likely it won't turn out well.

[Ryan Coles]

Other than the Old Course, How many of the GB&I would be in the top 50 if Aus and USA were brought into the equation?


It seems to me that greens became a much bigger deal when the wind wasn't as big a factor as it is here.

[Thomas Dai]

I haven't played many UK Colt courses that don't have a bunch of interesting green complexes, unless that is they've been 'modified' by others.

Atb

[Sean_A]

I haven't played many UK Colt courses that don't have a bunch of interesting green complexes, unless that is they've been 'modified' by others.

Atb

Edgbaston has a very good set of greens.

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Very hard to see why greens would ever need to stimp over 9 with greens like this.
Incredible.
All awesome but the 3rd and 4th ones are so cool


Thanks Sean/Thomas

[Tom_Doak]

No, I am saying that if Ganton's greens were that good (as in top 5 good) it is highly likely that Doak would have remembered them as a highlight of the course. In my experience, Doak's memory is very good for this stuff, but mabe I wrong.

Sean:


Thanks for defending my memory, although it isn't what it used to be, because more of it is devoted to the details of all the courses I've worked on.  I last visited Ganton in about 1986, so there is good reason I'd have a gap there.


However, back when my memory was much better, in 1992, I put an appendix in the back of THE ANATOMY OF A GOLF COURSE where I listed what I thought were the best sets of greens, best bunkers, and best routings I had seen in my travels.  I didn't list Ganton for its greens [obviously, I did for its bunkers].  But even then I'm not infallible, since I somehow left Machrihanish, Sandwich and the Eden course off that list, and I've always loved their greens.


P.S.  The seven UK / Ireland courses I did list for greens:  Ballybunion, Dornoch, North Berwick, Prestwick, Royal Worlington, St. Andrews (Old), and Woking.

[Sean_A]

Tom

My wife says my memory never was good!  So maybe Ally is right.  However, not all good sets of greens can be top 5  .  So...

Ally,

definitely to each is own.  I can fully understand your trained eye looking for elements which which are built rather than found.  But for me, I prefer interesting found elements because archies tend to repeat themselves and dag nab it, many simply can't help putting a spade in the ground...its what they do.

Jeff

Yes, most of those greens spill to the edge of a sharp slope(s)...so if you make a mistake there is no saving grace.  You don't see many greens with cut lines like this.  That is one reason why I liked Leckford Old's greens so much...two good examples below. 





Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean,


I'm not sure I look for built rather than found, I just look for beauty, elegance and impact on play.


Most green sites need a little bit of work to them, even if they are found. It is unusual to see such simple greens as those at Welshpool and don't get me wrong - they look brilliant. I wish more greens were this simple yet so much fun to play (if indeed they play as they look).


But I do perhaps tend to something a little more sophisticated when choosing my 5 best. As you said yourself, top-5 is a big ask.


Possibly I overplay Ganton but I was stunned that I heard so little about those greens. They went a long way to me proclaiming it the best inland course in GB&I.


Ally

[Ally Mcintosh]

Moving on,


I do love the look of those Leckford Old greens. The second one reminds me a little of the off-set false front on Colt's 12th green on the Rosapenna OTM course.

[Sean_A]

I think Braid was fortunate at Welshpool with all the wee ripples and sharp drop-offs.  It obvious that on some holes he smoothed out the ripples on the greens because they would have been nuts.  Still, I wonder what the greens were like 80 years ago...they must have settled quite a bit!  I believe Stutt built the course and he would have been well versed in what Braid wanted and Braid would have Stutt to do the right thing. 

Its a bad disease we have with green pads not being filled out.  So many greens would be far more interesting....it can make a huge difference. Case in point is Edgbaston...the greens have shrunk to the point that many bunkers are only half connected to the greens. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think Braid was fortunate at Welshpool with all the wee ripples and sharp drop-offs.  It obvious that on some holes he smoothed out the ripples on the greens because they would have been nuts.  Still, I wonder what the greens were like 80 years ago...they must have settled quite a bit!  I believe Stutt built the course and he would have been well versed in what Braid wanted and Braid would have Stutt to do the right thing. 

Its a bad disease we have with green pads not being filled out.  So many greens would be far more interesting....it can make a huge difference. Case in point is Edgbaston...the greens have shrunk to the point that many bunkers are only half connected to the greens. 

Ciao

100% agree on that last point.