5 best sets of greens in GB&I

[Thomas Dai]

Anyone going to be brave enough to suggest the Castle Course at St Andrews? Or even the revised Wentworth?
Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon, I'm sorry but I can't find much favour for Dewsbury and District> It's a very manufactured course which I played fairy frequently in the 80s. I am, however, glad to see that you like Halifax - it's one of those courses that divides opinion. I like it.

Mark,


if you were playing there in the first half of the 80's I would imagine our paths will have crossed as I practically lived at the course when not in school.


I am not suggesting they are great greens individually but rather as a set offer a diverse range of challenges with no two being the same. On the point of great greens I would suggest the 9th is a really great green and the 13th is also very unique in a good way.


On your point of the course being manufactured I have no problems with that and indeed prefer that to much of the bland faux natural that is in trend at the moment. Much of the good Doctors and almost all of Braids was very manufactured in style and look.


Jon

[Richard Fisher]

Taking the other tack altogether, which courses do people really like in the UK where the green sites themselves are not the particular or special focus of interest? Patric Dickinson's lovely description of Aberdovey's greens as not 'large undulant queries, but simple full stops', where you should never, ever take three putts, seems germane here. Any other contenders?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Taking the other tack altogether, which courses do people really like in the UK where the green sites themselves are not the particular or special focus of interest? Patric Dickinson's lovely description of Aberdovey's greens as not 'large undulant queries, but simple full stops', where you should never, ever take three putts, seems germane here. Any other contenders?

Most of the Surrey heathland courses are very good to great despite their greens, not because of them. Some beautiful green sites but not many courses where contour plays a major part.

[Josh Stevens]

New Zealand's are not quite on the same level as Woking but only by a titch.  Don't have the wild undulations, but tie into the bunkers a bit better I think

[Duncan Cheslett]

Jon, I'm sorry but I can't find much favour for Dewsbury and District> It's a very manufactured course which I played fairy frequently in the 80s. I am, however, glad to see that you like Halifax - it's one of those courses that divides opinion. I like it.

Mark,


if you were playing there in the first half of the 80's I would imagine our paths will have crossed as I practically lived at the course when not in school.


I am not suggesting they are great greens individually but rather as a set offer a diverse range of challenges with no two being the same. On the point of great greens I would suggest the 9th is a really great green and the 13th is also very unique in a good way.


On your point of the course being manufactured I have no problems with that and indeed prefer that to much of the bland faux natural that is in trend at the moment. Much of the good Doctors and almost all of Braids was very manufactured in style and look.


Jon

Jon,


We have day out at Dewsbury coming up with the Alister MacKenzie Society, so it is interesting to discover that you know the course so well.


What is the extent of MacKenzie's involvement? There is no mention of him on the club website although the MacKenzie Chronology records him as having visited the club in November 1913 and submitted a scheme for improvements. This scheme was approved and his account in the sum of £10 settled the following February.


Anything you can enlighten us on?

[Jon Wiggett]

Hi Duncan,


there is very little left alas. I believe that the 9th and the 13th are the only two greens still in play from the original Mackenzie course though there are two greens on the second left and right of the summer green and the old 14th which you walk passed on the way to the next tee after 13. All of these are used in the winter. Everything else was destroyed in the misguided Thomas/Allis redesign of the early 70s were the club ran out of money and so botched a bad design.


The greens as I knew them however did offer a good all-round golfing challenge and so my suggesting them. I was ignoring the awful new fourth green which is just bad. It is a shame that too many on here see beauty instead of substance when evaluating a course.


Jon

[Matt Dawson]

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Most of the Surrey heathland courses are very good to great despite their greens, not because of them. Some beautiful green sites but not many courses where contour plays a major part.

Ally

Normally I would agree this statement; in fact I consider the heathland courses that I know well as having mainly flat greens - Sunningdale, Walton Heath & The Berkshire for example

But can I ask if you have seen St George's Hill? I think the land is so much more undulating than you find on a typical heathland course

The greens are difficult for a couple of reasons; firstly, 8 of the 18 greens have a pronounced tier or spine) in them – all of which run front to back (rather than face on). Consequently a lot of the time you are faced with putting up or down a tier and usually with considerable break, unless you are perfectly pin high. Personally I find this type of putt the hardest to manage. The spine on the 14th green is particularly heinous in this respect

Secondly, 7 of the remaining greens have significant slope to them and are usually situated on elevated “knobs” which makes putts and approaches difficult especially in firm conditions. These are notable greens such as 8, 9, 16, 18 which happily repel any less then perfectly hit shot and cause consternation when putting from above the hole

I can only really think of 3 greens (7, 11, 12) that are basically flat and where 2-putting is usually stress-free. Yet earlier you mentioned Ganton, which I am very familiar with (30+ plays), and I am struggling to think of any greens there that give the fits like at SGH...possibly 7 and 9 but that’s about it

[Ally Mcintosh]

Matt, I agree about St. George's Hill greens. They are an excellent set. By mentioning heathland, I did not mean it to be catch all. It's just that on more courses than not, the heathland greens don't inspire in terms of internal contour. Not that it is all about big internal contour and giving people the fits, anything but.... Interesting movement should be the overall winner and Ganton has it in spades. There are a hundred things going on in most greens at Ganton.

Mark Bourgeois said it best on Sean's photo tour thread:

"Do any greens convey a better sense of 'architectural repose' than Ganton's? The way they rest upon the terrain -- really, in the terrain -- is quiet yet miles from boring. And those bunkers, though fearsome, when viewed from a distance at eye level do anything but shout"

Look at a photo and you don't see much (quiet) but they are about the least boring greens that I know. You mention 7 & 9 (big movement) but each and every other green has something different about it and many of them have tons of internal contour moving in all directions. It's just that the contour doesn't consist of 3 foot high steps and tiers. Real classics. Try 3, 4 and 15 as the first three that come off the top of my head. But I could change those three for any three others

[Richard Fisher]

The one real heathland-ish outlier is perhaps Huntercombe (already suggested on this chain) with some of the most remarkable green sites anywhere in England (and not just famed examples like those at 1, 3, 4, and 8: coming home 11, 13, 15, 16 and 17 all have a remarkable degree of quirk, and interest).

[Adam Lawrence]

Most of the Surrey heathland courses are very good to great despite their greens, not because of them. Some beautiful green sites but not many courses where contour plays a major part.

Ally

Normally I would agree this statement; in fact I consider the heathland courses that I know well as having mainly flat greens - Sunningdale, Walton Heath & The Berkshire for example

But can I ask if you have seen St George's Hill? I think the land is so much more undulating than you find on a typical heathland course

The greens are difficult for a couple of reasons; firstly, 8 of the 18 greens have a pronounced tier or spine) in them – all of which run front to back (rather than face on). Consequently a lot of the time you are faced with putting up or down a tier and usually with considerable break, unless you are perfectly pin high. Personally I find this type of putt the hardest to manage. The spine on the 14th green is particularly heinous in this respect

Secondly, 7 of the remaining greens have significant slope to them and are usually situated on elevated “knobs” which makes putts and approaches difficult especially in firm conditions. These are notable greens such as 8, 9, 16, 18 which happily repel any less then perfectly hit shot and cause consternation when putting from above the hole

I can only really think of 3 greens (7, 11, 12) that are basically flat and where 2-putting is usually stress-free. Yet earlier you mentioned Ganton, which I am very familiar with (30+ plays), and I am struggling to think of any greens there that give the fits like at SGH...possibly 7 and 9 but that’s about it

Apparently that ridge in the fourteenth green was 'considerably lowered' in the 1920s. I quail to think of what it must have been like originally.

[Sam Krume]

Amongst those already mentioned I will offer up Epsom as having a wonderful set of greens, totally lay of the land.

[Adam Lawrence]

Amongst those already mentioned I will offer up Epsom as having a wonderful set of greens, totally lay of the land.

PROOF REQUIRED (hint hint)

[Scott Champion]

Most of the Surrey heathland courses are very good to great despite their greens, not because of them. Some beautiful green sites but not many courses where contour plays a major part.

Ally

Normally I would agree this statement; in fact I consider the heathland courses that I know well as having mainly flat greens - Sunningdale, Walton Heath & The Berkshire for example

But can I ask if you have seen St George's Hill? I think the land is so much more undulating than you find on a typical heathland course

The greens are difficult for a couple of reasons; firstly, 8 of the 18 greens have a pronounced tier or spine) in them – all of which run front to back (rather than face on). Consequently a lot of the time you are faced with putting up or down a tier and usually with considerable break, unless you are perfectly pin high. Personally I find this type of putt the hardest to manage. The spine on the 14th green is particularly heinous in this respect

Secondly, 7 of the remaining greens have significant slope to them and are usually situated on elevated “knobs” which makes putts and approaches difficult especially in firm conditions. These are notable greens such as 8, 9, 16, 18 which happily repel any less then perfectly hit shot and cause consternation when putting from above the hole

I can only really think of 3 greens (7, 11, 12) that are basically flat and where 2-putting is usually stress-free. Yet earlier you mentioned Ganton, which I am very familiar with (30+ plays), and I am struggling to think of any greens there that give the fits like at SGH...possibly 7 and 9 but that’s about it

Apparently that ridge in the fourteenth green was 'considerably lowered' in the 1920s. I quail to think of what it must have been like originally.

As you mention, the spine / tiers running parallel to the line of play feature on many of the greens at SGH. I thought they work quite well, often placing emphasis on approaching from a particular angle depending on which side the pin is.


I noticed a similar pronounced spine on the Eden Course (1st green pictured). My understanding is these holes were built around the same time (1911-1912)? Where else can this feature be found - and more interestingly, is it on any other Colt courses?

[Sean_A]

Scott

It is my understanding that St Georges Hill used to have more severe greens that were dumbed down. 

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Scott

It is my understanding that St Georges Hill used to have more severe greens that were dumbed down. 

Ciao

Yes, that is correct, and it was done by HSC himself in the very early days of the course. When SGH opened there was a hail of acclaim for it generally, but equally lots of comment that the greens were unputtable. The pros who played in the opening day exhibition had several four putts and Colt redid several of the greens very quickly.

[Thomas Dai]

Where else can this feature be found - and more interestingly, is it on any other Colt course?
5th at Muirfield
A couple at Royal County Down (can't recall hole numbers)
Both I presume by Mr Colt
Nice feature. Bit different to the norm.
Atb

[Niall C]

Anyone going to be brave enough to suggest the Castle Course at St Andrews? Or even the revised Wentworth?
Atb

Dai


You raise a good point, what if the Castle course were a hundred years old ? We would likely be raving about the greens, same with Mach Dunes.


Niall

[Jeff Johnston]

Anyone going to be brave enough to suggest the Castle Course at St Andrews? Or even the revised Wentworth?
Atb

Dai


You raise a good point, what if the Castle course were a hundred years old ? We would likely be raving about the greens, same with Mach Dunes.


Niall

I honestly don't think so Niall - they are just too goofy and tricked up and out of keeping with their surrounds (and I say that as someone who loves contour and movement, TOC greens rule supreme in my book). That said I haven't seen the Castle Course since around 2010 - did they ever soften the contours as mooted at a time?

Re greens being at one with their surroundings - can I put forward the largely unheralded first at Baltray, with its green beautifully sited on the most subtle of little crests. If there is a better blanket-on-the-ground type green around I have yet to see it.

[Sean_A]

If you want to see blanket on the ground greens head for the Cotswolds and play Cleeve Cloud and Painwick.  A few handfuls of these surfaces are beauties and not surpassed anywhere in my experience.  Welshpool and some outstanding examples as well.  Generally, if you want lay of the land greens stay far away from big name courses.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Re greens being at one with their surroundings - can I put forward the largely unheralded first at Baltray, with its green beautifully sited on the most subtle of little crests. If there is a better blanket-on-the-ground type green around I have yet to see it.

7th at Burnham & Berrow?
atb

[Jeff Johnston]

Funny you say that Sean - as a devotee of jumps racing (and member at Cheltenham) I must have driven past the gate into Cleeve Cloud at least 100 times but shamefully have never called in or played it. Will get in touch re a game there at some point if you're amenable....

[Jeff Johnston]

Re greens being at one with their surroundings - can I put forward the largely unheralded first at Baltray, with its green beautifully sited on the most subtle of little crests. If there is a better blanket-on-the-ground type green around I have yet to see it.

7th at Burnham & Berrow?
atb

that is a beaut as well Thomas (albeit it's a while since I've set foot on it)

[Robin_Hiseman]

Having played Mach Dunes this very morning I can vouch for it having a wonderfully entertaining set of greens. Brilliant and bold internal and surrounds contouring with a great range of hole locations offering a huge range of strategic choices. Terrific fun.

[Emil Weber]

Since I just skipped through a few photo tours of it and haven't seen it mentioned in this thread, would the greens at Askernish qualify? In terms of being at one with their surroundings and internal contours (micro as well as larger ones) they do seem to be a contender. Perhaps they don't play that well due to maintenance? Or as a set they're just too wild and unvaried? Cheers