[Ran Morrissett]

I have never seen worse course management in my life.


The relentless selection of driver on all the par 4s longer than 400 yards, the missed short irons from fairways onto the high banks beside greens like the 2nd and 12th, approaches short of sucker hole locations into water hazards, JD on 18 (!!), little wedges over the 8th green, short siding themselves, on and on.  Given their phenomenal talent level, it is hard to believe such results were all missed shots. Bottom line: They continually put the ball where they shouldn't.


I grew up watching Nicklaus play and cumulatively over two decades, he missed fewer shots than what I saw this weekend from Quail Hollow.


How much of their poor course management is due to the lack of training that they receive from routinely playing mediocre architecture? They were asked to think on each shot this week and became 'exhausted'. The CBS crew whined for easier conditions but a little more course management would have gone a long way toward yielding lower results.


 

[Tom_Doak]

Jack wasn't swinging as hard, because he couldn't with the equipment of the day.


Also he didn't play a lot of par-4's at 500-520 yards.

[Carl Rogers]

there were a lot of unforced errors

[Blake Conant]

Faldo was thinking the same thing.  He was railing on Patrick Reed for chipping with a lofted club from just off the front of 18 green when a bump and run was the play.  Seemed beside himself to watch guys make the mistakes you're talking about.


Routinely playing mediocre architecture has to be a big part of it. 

[Tim Martin]

Faldo was thinking the same thing.  He was railing on Patrick Reed for chipping with a lofted club from just off the front of 18 green when a bump and run was the play.  Seemed beside himself to watch guys make the mistakes you're talking about.


Routinely playing mediocre architecture has to be a big part of it.

Blake-Kisner and Reed did the same thing on the inward nine and Faldo went off on them also saying the shot should be played with an 8 or 9 iron so that it is not impacted by excessive spin and worse case these guys should be 6 feet. Seems to me in high stress situations that just playing the shot to run out is the safer play.

[jeffwarne]

Jack wasn't swinging as hard, because he couldn't with the equipment of the day.


Also he didn't play a lot of par-4's at 500-520 yards.

Disagree with #1
Jack was swinging hard-and crushed it.
Many players swung hard in that era-Jack, Arnie,Player and Hogan(as well as many others) all swung hard and had VERY stiff shafts.
Hitting the center of the club is spoken about way too much.
They hit it then, they hit it now.
Clubface control has always been what matters.


ON point 2 you're right on
Jack hit a 240 1 iron and at most had 200 in after that.
Nowadays if you hit a hybrid(or 3 iron which is the 1 iron equivalent in length and loft) you still have 260 in.
200 is way easier to hit a green than 280, even if both players are hitting a 3 iron.
The entire scale has changed, and with the exception of Erin Hills, fairways are the same width they always were,the greens are about the same size, yet the holes are much longer.


Besides, Jack had 8-10 people to beat, not 50-100.


That said, Jack was an awesome course manager.
But,,,,he finished second 19 times in pro majors and won 18 so he wasn't perfect.


The guys today know you have to play to win the entire 72 holes, and that 4 68's usually won't win(Jack's forte)
Of course it would've worked this week...


Agreed they all need to learn to chip more often-rather than pitch

[J_ Crisham]

Jack wasn't swinging as hard, because he couldn't with the equipment of the day.


Also he didn't play a lot of par-4's at 500-520 yards.

Jack played with arguably inferior equipment and as you may recall broke several driver club faces back in the day. Jack swang plenty hard. His course management skills and ability to make the putt that mattered was the great seperation point versus his peers. How many of today's players could hit a 1 iron? A high cut 1 iron off the deck? He may not have played any 520 yd par 4s but he played plenty at 470. Given the improvements in clubs , balls ,and course conditioning it's a wash where the distance is concerned .

[Tom_Doak]

I could swear I've seen Mr Nicklaus say numerous times that he rarely swung at over 90%.  (And true enough, 90% for him was more than 100 for a lot of his contemporaries.)  but how many guys today are dialed back that much?

[David Wuthrich]

Players today for the most part don't know how to manage a golf course like the older players did.  They hit it as far as humanly possible and go hit it again.  As was once said, "They play a game to which I am not familiar!"

[James Brown]

Exactly.  Jack has said repeatedly that he never went all out and rarely pressed for distance.  Today's pros are all swinging at much closer to their max speeds, especially with their irons.  They are just all around better athletes and have not had to win much with guile or finesse, especially around the greens. 

[Peter Pallotta]

He did say it, Tom, and did play that way - and everyone he played against knew that he always had extra power/distance in reserve.
I usually and naturally defer to Jeff W in all matters related to playing the game, but here he's talking total nonsense.
JN had to beat the same size field and the same kind of field that Justin Thomas had to beat today -- and just like in Jack's day, most of those in the field of a major championship beat themselves. (Q: in 30 years, how many of today's golfers will be remembered at all, let alone held in the same esteem as, say, Tom Watson, Lee Trevino, and Gary Player?  I tell you how many - 3, just like we only remember those 3 names amongst Jack's competitors and then claim that he didn't play against strong fields.) 
I don't know what major championships Jeff's been watching over the last 10-15 years, but 4 68s sure seem good enough to have won a whole lot of them. Oh, btw - ask Ben Crenshaw if he or anyone else on tour at the time could hit JN's 1 iron - and I don't mean hit it as well as Jack, I mean hit it at all!
Anyway - this whole line of debate (including my own post) is idiotic. Every generation has its rare and true greats - and the rarest and truest greats transcend their time. Bobby Orr and Wayne Gretzky did; Willie Mays and Ted Williams did; and Jack (and Tiger) certainly did. I'll wait to see who amongst today's best golfers might transcend their era. You'll excuse me if in the meantime I don't denigrate the guy who won 18 major championship and who was in the mix for dozens more, almost constantly and over almost 40 years!
And btw (2) - all this talk about Jack beating weaker fields in his era really is annoying. Doesn't anyone remember 1998? That wasn't Jack's era - that was a later (and presumably by Jeff's way of thinking) 'better' era for strengths of field.  And what does JN do but finish T6 in the Masters, just 4 shots off the winning score -- at 58 years old! and playing on at least one if not two recently installed artificial hips! Oh yeah, he beat nobody -- except that among those finishing *behind* him were: Ernie Els, Phil Mickelson, Colin Montgomerie, Tiger Woods, JM Olazabal, D Love, and B Langer.     
Peter

[Kyle Harris]

Isn't Jack Nicklaus the biggest proponent of chipping with one club?


And wasn't that the lofted SW?

[Mike_Young]

Growing up...any of the instructors said chipping with a seven iron was 1/3 in the air and 2/3 roll....but greens were stimping maybe 8. 
I think the removal of the midirons as approach clubs have done more to change ball striking than anything else.  When a 500 yard par 4 can be played with a driver 9 iron then being in the rough doesn't matter....they are taught to hit driver...   solution..eliminate the rough and let the ball roll out sideways into trouble...it often helps the long knockers...

[Mike Schott]

Isn't Jack Nicklaus the biggest proponent of chipping with one club?


And wasn't that the lofted SW?

And has been often said, that was the weakest part of his game. I'd take Tom Watson's short game advice over Jack's.

[Eric LeFante]

I'm surprised no one hit 3 wood on 18. The right bunker got so much action. Even Thomas with a two shot lead hit driver. There was no way Thomas was going left off 18 tee today so with driver in hand he was almost guaranteed to hit it in the bunker. Tiger used to hit a lot of 3 woods and irons off the tee. Today's young players who hit it a mile hit driver everywhere.

[JMEvensky]

Isn't Jack Nicklaus the biggest proponent of chipping with one club?


And wasn't that the lofted SW?

Ballesteros certainly was--but I'm not sure many have his skill set.


Hope all is well KH.

[Jerry Kluger]

The turf was still very wet in spots so the lofted wedge chip shots were a bad idea; the sub air system could dry out the greens and keep them firm.  The course was very difficult and they were being very defensive on a lot of the holes.  They were deathly afraid of the 16th tee shot and only Thomas went after the flag on 17.  I am not convinced that top players today are better off not using drivers other than situations where they hit it too far - the big head and the perfect fitting shaft make it very easy to hit - they just made bad swings.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jack's competition had a few more true greats, but probably less depth of field.  He talked about figuring out which side of the pin to be on while others, with that equipment were happy with the middle of the green.


Sometime in the 1980's, still Jack's era, tour pros (according to those I know who played then) evolved to aim at every pin, probably the only way to beat Jack.  You aimed at every pin, bombed every drive, and if you were on, you made a big check, if you were off, you finished pretty low.  That is how Colbert, Wadkins, Watson, Trevino, etc. felt, based on my conversations with them.


BTW, I do recall JN using one club to chip, sort of like using one shot pattern.  Basically, strategic elements meant a lot less to him than consistency of swing, which I would easily bet  is the biggest contributor, after putting, to a good score.  I tried to do the math on strategy once, and doubt you could pick up two strokes over 72 holes purely attributable to strategy.


Of course, clubs, balls etc, have done nothing to change that trend.  To me, its somewhat like watching NBA teams play for the 3 pointer time after time.  I liked the old Indian Knight coached teams who passed until someone was open for a short shot.  Less, or at least different strategy.  Someone recently made the same connection to baseball relying more on home runs and suffering more strikeouts now than ever before.

[hhuffines]

Was Kisner -10 when he hit the iron left to the lake on 16 yesterday?  He later hit the creek on 18 only to bounce out to the rough.  I don't think anyone else got lower than -9. 

[Matthew Essig]

With regards to course management among the professionals, I think poor setups have led to the decline in course management.

While some of the stuff said on "Live From" can sometimes be bonkers, they do hit the nail on the head sometimes. One thing that they all agree on is the PGA Tour week-to-week sets up courses that almost never deter bomb and gouge. That is why the top 10 in the world golf rankings is always made up of a majority of them. Going into this week, all the analysts were comparing Quail Hollow to the normal tour event. It normally favors longer hitters. Lengthen the golf course for the PGA, and it really must favor them, right? Wrong. The PGA set up Quail Hollow so a missed fairway costed you; it was playing like a traditional US Open. During the broadcast, Faldo praised how the PGA usually finds the happy ground that doesn't favor the long hitter nor take driver out of anyones hand (when it fails, it is usually related to rain making the course play longer and then favor the long hitter). As a result, most of the top 10 players struggled. Rory didn't do want he normally does there. Day struggled with missing fairways. DJ, Sergio, Rahm, Phil, the list goes on, couldn't rely on their normal tactics. Thomas, Reed, Molinari, Oosthuizen, Matsuyama, Fowler, DaLaet, Kisner, Stroud, and Kuchar are all names finished in the top ten. They finished there because of their ball striking. Hitting fairways, hitting greens, and, if they didn't, missed in the right spots. These players, who might not have been perfect with course management, did it better than the rest because they are used to having to play that kind of golf to compete. What makes Thomas special is that he can bomb and gouge, but also manages his game better than most other bomb and gougers. We all knew he was going to win one eventually (a 59 and a 63 in a major this year, too). The "Live From" guys mentioned how it was nice to get away from the norm. Teeth grinding. Deft touch. Sweaty palms. By getting away from the norm, it wasn't the leaderboard we are used to seeing. To the golf viewer, they understand the change. To the common sport viewer, they probably thought this was terrible. Next week, we go go back to the norm. The top 10 we know and love will return to their winning ways. Course management won't be important again until maybe the Tour Championship. Maybe we will see a Moore-type taking on a Rory-type showdown again. If not, you have to wait 235 days until the first round of the Masters.

[Thomas Dai]

Course management, nous and the like tend not to be learnt on the range or from a Trackman but on the course. Many a Major or tournament generally hasn't been so much 'won' by someone as 'lost/thrown away by' others and even some of the ultimate greatest players 'lost/threw away' Majors early in their career. They learnt quick from it though.
Atb

[David Davis]

Ran,


I'm guessing if you were a better ball striker you would of stubbornly carried your hickories onto the first tee just to prove a point.


I guess it would be challenging for you to triumph taking this not so unimportant point into play, even given the superior quality of the modern golf ball.


I found the PGA Championships a wonderful opportunity to catch up on some of that much needed shut-eye from recent travels. Seriously, far to boring but agree with your assessment for the most part.

[A.G._Crockett]

Is it possible that some of what we saw had to do with the relatively few trips the Tour makes to southern courses with heavy bermuda rough late in the summer?  I know that these guys play such courses, and I don't mean in any way to excuse bad decision making, but three inch lush bermuda rough is a very different dynamic for shot-making than what the Tour normally does through the summer months.  I don't think anyone would look at Quail Hollow and judge that they had let Mother Nature dictate the conditions; I guarantee that the rough had been heavily fertilized in the run-up to the tournament.

A related question:  Is it possible that the extreme speeds and firmness of the Champion bermuda this time of year militates that players get as close to the green as possible at all costs, simply because the greens won't hold longer irons/hybrids/fairway woods?  When I play on really fast Champion bermuda this time of year, I almost disregard any distance except the front of the green because I'm never sure whether even a well-struck approach will hold; if the shot hits down-grain, it can be over the green and gone.  (And btw, I don't find it to be an especially enjoyable way to play golf!)  So if players are looking at the hole from the tee, and know that they won't be firing at pins on their approach anyway, then the risk-reward calculus of hitting driver becomes very different.  Think about where everybody but Justin Thomas hit their tee shot on 17 yesterday, OFF A TEE, and then make that a par 4 or 5 approach shot.  "Might as well get closer; I won't be able to go at the pin anyway."

And two gear-head comments; I'd ask that you not kill the messenger on these.

1. There is a LOT of data now that shows that getting as close to the green as possible is more directly related to low scores than  hitting from the fairway at greater distance back; that's the way these guys play the game, and changing that on the fly isn't easy, even for elite Tour pros.  That isn't necessarily a course management mistake.

2. There is a misunderstanding about the 3 wood vs. driver decision for today's Tour pros.  They ONLY hit 3 wood when they don't want to hit the ball TOO FAR; their 3 woods are NOT necessarily straighter than their drivers. (Please don't tell me about Stenson; the exception proves the rule.)  That wasn't true in the good old days in which we all grew up, but drivers today are different creatures and are often the straightest club in the bag for elite pros.  Which brings us back to #1 above...

All of that said, I'd have to rank what Jason Day did on 18 on Saturday behind only Van de Velde and Mickelson for "amazing" decision-making, and behind those two only because they were both done down the stretch on Sunday.  Given that they were both playing well and Day was really struggling, it was arguably even worse for him to try whatever that was that he was trying. 

[Tim Gavrich]

In Reed's situation short of 18 green, which was the higher-percentage play: the one Nick Faldo wanted him to go with, or the one he went with, which he probably spends much, much more time practicing? GIve Reed 10 more shots from the same spot and he hits it much closer 8 of them. Let's not confuse bad execution with bad course management.


The notion that pro golfers have such low levels of self-awareness when it comes to their golf games, and their capabilities facing a given shot, than we armchair critics do is pretty strange, at least to me.

[Tom_Doak]

2. There is a misunderstanding about the 3 wood vs. driver decision for today's Tour pros.  They ONLY hit 3 wood when they don't want to hit the ball TOO FAR; their 3 woods are NOT necessarily straighter than their drivers. (Please don't tell me about Stenson; the exception proves the rule.)  That wasn't true in the good old days in which we all grew up, but drivers today are different creatures and are often the straightest club in the bag for elite pros.
 

Correct. The driver has by far the biggest head and the biggest sweet spot, so it's the easier club to hit when you are swinging at 100%.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()