[Jim Hoak]

A friend asked me the question--Which hole at Pine Valley best shows the uniqueness of the course--and of the Crump design (along with the other course architects who contributed)?  Stated differently, Which hole best demonstrates the character of the design and best represents the essence of Pine Valley?
Of course, all of the holes are unique and wonderful, but I would say that in my opinion the Second Hole best represents the unique nature of the design.  It has been copied (the First at Friars' Head comes to mind).  Its ample, but well-trapped, fairway tempts you.  The difficult approach shot challenges you.  And the undulating green smacks you in the mouth after you have escaped the first two.
Anyone have a different choice?

[Tommy Williamsen]

When I read your question number two came to mind first. If I had to chose a couple others I'd go with eight. It is one of the most exciting holes on the course. The shot into either green is pretty scary. I've played both greens but like the left green the best. Like most holes it is generous off the tee but the shot into the green is not easy.

[JESII]

This is actually a pretty cool question. The fact that each hole really is unique, and high quality IS the essence of Pine Valley so picking the best representation of that is both simple and difficult.


I think I might pick 15...

[Mark_Fine]

My least favorite hole there is #11 but outside of that one, flip a coin 

[Tom_Doak]

A friend of mine said #4.  When I asked why he said if you put that hole on any other course it would be the most talked-about hole, but at Pine Valley it rarely even enters the conversation.  Which demonstrates how good all the holes at Pine Valley are, and that is its essence.

[James Brown]

The 5th hole.  Nothing says Pine Valley better than all or nothing. 

[David Wuthrich]

I would go with any of the holes!!


But if I had to choose, 8 or 18.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jim S -
from photos, every hole at PV strikes me as being characteristic of the course as a whole; or, to put it differently: there is no golf hole at PV that looks like it comes from any other course except PV - and none that look like any other golf hole I've ever seen elsewhere. (BTW, I can't think of another course anywhere of which the same cab be said.) So I'm interested in where the uniqueness of each hole lies for you. Is it all in the playing, ie in the many and varying and different questions and golf shots each hole poses and demands?
Thanks - hope all is well with you and yours
Peter

[Ari Techner]

Jim S -
from photos, every hole at PV strikes me as being characteristic of the course as a whole; or, to put it differently: there is no golf hole at PV that looks like it comes from any other course except PV - and none that look like any other golf hole I've ever seen elsewhere. (BTW, I can't think of another course anywhere of which the same cab be said.) So I'm interested in where the uniqueness of each hole lies for you. Is it all in the playing, ie in the many and varying and different questions and golf shots each hole poses and demands?
Thanks - hope all is well with you and yours
Peter

I always find talk of PV having no weak holes or holes that look like anywhere else very interesting.  Every time i play the 14th it reminds me of many drop shot par 3s with pretty flat boring greens and the beach bunker reminds me of Northern Michigan resort courses.  Can someone enlighten me as to the redeeming qualities of the 14th that I seem to miss?

[archie_struthers]

 


For many years I thought #2 epitomized the Valley all the  while knowing #8 was one of the scariest short par fours in the world. 


Two wonderful par fives , a great starter in number 1 , toughest green perhaps on #9  (left) with a now fabulous skyline look.


Hmnn,  at the end for me its either  #4 or #13 with the fourth winning in a photo finish . The combination of beauty and strategy seal the deal.   Both require you to fit your tee shot into the right section of fairway and then when you walk up the hill and see the green it's quite breathtaking .


I think the second shot on four , sometimes from a hanging lie , requires great execution .  When firm and fast , this shot must be played to the right spot to make par, the green is really tricky.

[Dan Herrmann]

#2 does it for me.   


I've never played PV, but I've been very happy to have walked it 3 times.   I remember walking up #1, and rounding to get to #2 tee.  My thought when seeing #2 from the tee for the first time was "WOW - This is what all the hubbub is about".


I had never seen another hole come close. 


But then I got to #3 and #4, etc, and realized like others have said, that PV has 18 amazing holes.    Heck, the green on #18 with its huge size, is certainly great enough to call out for its own merits.

[Rory Connaughton]

With the clearing around 5 and the visual that ties the 5th green into the waste area on 6, it has to be 5 for me but it could be any of them.

[JESII]

Jim S -
from photos, every hole at PV strikes me as being characteristic of the course as a whole; or, to put it differently: there is no golf hole at PV that looks like it comes from any other course except PV - and none that look like any other golf hole I've ever seen elsewhere. (BTW, I can't think of another course anywhere of which the same cab be said.) So I'm interested in where the uniqueness of each hole lies for you. Is it all in the playing, ie in the many and varying and different questions and golf shots each hole poses and demands?
Thanks - hope all is well with you and yours
Peter

I always find talk of PV having no weak holes or holes that look like anywhere else very interesting.  Every time i play the 14th it reminds me of many drop shot par 3s with pretty flat boring greens and the beach bunker reminds me of Northern Michigan resort courses.  Can someone enlighten me as to the redeeming qualities of the 14th that I seem to miss?

Name one with the same issues if you'd like to get to the middle of the green or beyond? How about if the wind is in, from the left, at about 2 clubs like the last time I played it?

[JESII]

Peter,


Will expound tomorrow, with more time.


Have a good night.


Sully

[Ari Techner]

Jim S -
from photos, every hole at PV strikes me as being characteristic of the course as a whole; or, to put it differently: there is no golf hole at PV that looks like it comes from any other course except PV - and none that look like any other golf hole I've ever seen elsewhere. (BTW, I can't think of another course anywhere of which the same cab be said.) So I'm interested in where the uniqueness of each hole lies for you. Is it all in the playing, ie in the many and varying and different questions and golf shots each hole poses and demands?
Thanks - hope all is well with you and yours
Peter

I always find talk of PV having no weak holes or holes that look like anywhere else very interesting.  Every time i play the 14th it reminds me of many drop shot par 3s with pretty flat boring greens and the beach bunker reminds me of Northern Michigan resort courses.  Can someone enlighten me as to the redeeming qualities of the 14th that I seem to miss?

Name one with the same issues if you'd like to get to the middle of the green or beyond? How about if the wind is in, from the left, at about 2 clubs like the last time I played it?

I am not sure what your getting at exactly.  The challenges of this hole (with or without wind) aren't any different than any other drop shot par 3 in terms of judging distance control and the green, while not large is pretty flat and devoid of features and shape unlike most of PVs greens.  I find it to be a pretty generic hole that if it was on any other course would never be thought of as special. 

[archie_struthers]

 


Ari , we've left the question as to what hole epitomizes PV. 


What I will say about about # 14 is that when you first walk off 13 and look left its quite striking.  It was the only hole when looping there that I would get nervous giving yardage , playing yardage .  No matter how many times you had been there you can't  judge the wind .  Must be much the same at Golden Bell (12) at Augusta.


It looks like a breather between 13 and 15 , but it certainly is not !

[Kyle Harris]

Jim S -
from photos, every hole at PV strikes me as being characteristic of the course as a whole; or, to put it differently: there is no golf hole at PV that looks like it comes from any other course except PV - and none that look like any other golf hole I've ever seen elsewhere. (BTW, I can't think of another course anywhere of which the same cab be said.) So I'm interested in where the uniqueness of each hole lies for you. Is it all in the playing, ie in the many and varying and different questions and golf shots each hole poses and demands?
Thanks - hope all is well with you and yours
Peter

I always find talk of PV having no weak holes or holes that look like anywhere else very interesting.  Every time i play the 14th it reminds me of many drop shot par 3s with pretty flat boring greens and the beach bunker reminds me of Northern Michigan resort courses.  Can someone enlighten me as to the redeeming qualities of the 14th that I seem to miss?

How many of those Northern Michigan resort courses were built by William Flynn/George Crump/Hugh Wilson from 1917-1922?

[Mark_Fine]

Yes the likeness of the 14th hole has been copied many other times around the country/world.  That can be said for many of the holes at PV. 


If you think PV as penal, it is easy to see why some here think the #2 hole is the one they might choose.  It is unique and without question a fantastic golf hole but it also might be the tightest driving hole on the course.  I have always viewed PV as one of it not the greatest 2nd shot course in the world.  If you add in the par threes, PV is one of the most demanding courses for approach shots to the greens.  The tee shots, relatively speaking, are much more generous (except for #2).  As such, I think #2 is the most demanding off the tee and into the green of any of the holes on the golf course. 

[Jim Hoak]

Mark, good points.
I don't think of PV as penal on the tee shots--only on approach shots and putts.  And, while I don't think of the #2 tee shot as overly difficult, it is more so than on other tee shots.
In my mind, the 13th hole is the best hole on the course--and maybe in all of the US.  And the 4th is close behind.  But I don't think that either are representative of the essence of PV design.  The length required on both of them is greater than found on other holes.
Both of the par 5's--#7 and #15--are wonderful.
It is a hard question to answer.

[Ari Techner]

I guess to me being old, or a more original version of imo a non exciting design concept does not make it a great hole regardless of who designed it or when.  If it's not a great hole in Gaylord, MI then it's not a great hole in Clementon, NJ either.


To me 13 is quintessential PV.  Wide off the tee with great topography and an amazing green site that is easier to access from the right part of the fairway.

[James Brown]

Is the 8th hole the first separate green hole in the US?

[Ed Brzezowski]

Halfway through reading your question two came to mind immediately.  The requirement for a good tee shot is common on the course but the green is pure PV. After putting that green there is no doubt you are in for a treat.

[Mike_Trenham]

To me it is #6, as it is an example of penal and strategic design.


Also, while not the best hole on the course it explifiies how good the individual holes are as #6 is securely in the midddle of the pack.

[thomaslaffont]

Hi Jim,


It is a terrific question. I played Pine Valley for the first time a week ago after reading about it for so many years. I agree with you that it is the second hole. For all the reasons you lay out: a tee shot that demands accuracy, a difficult second shot requiring a carry over bunkers and a complex undulating green.


But most of all because I distinctly remember, upon gazing at the towering bunker hazard protecting the green, thinking that a shot like this one is exactly what makes Pine Valley unique.


Thanks for taking me back to that moment,


Thomas

[Doug Wright]

A lot of votes for #2 and other holes too but for me when I got to Hell's Half Acre on #7 I realized I wasn't in Kansas (or Colorado) any more. Though I suppose one could say it's not much different than having a forced-carry lake in the middle of a par 5 fairway, that collection of sand and scrub seemed pretty unique to me...

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