News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« on: August 03, 2017, 01:46:57 PM »
So much discussion here revolves around course raters so I thought I'd give you a narrative of two days in the life of a Golfweek rater.  Just for what it’s worth.  Feel free to draw your own conclusions.

With an overnight trip to Madison, Wisconsin scheduled to teach at a banking school and no opportunity for additional days due to work constraints I wanted to see a couple of golf courses in the area, knowing the schedule would be tight.  Plenty of opportunities in the area, including such stalwarts as Erin Hills, Lawsonia Links, Sand Valley, Milwaukee CC, Blue Mound, Blackwolf Run and Whistling Straits to name a few.  I opted for Pine Hills CC in Sheboygan and Ozaukee CC in Mequon, the only two calls I placed.   

Schedule as follows:
Up at 4 a.m. for a 6:20 a.m. flight to Milwaukee.  Drive north to Sheboygan for an afternoon round at Pine Hills.  Charcoal Inn for lunch – the genuine article.  Post round, a 2 hours drive to Madison.  Arriving at 9 p.m. with time for a burger, cheese curds and a Spotted Cow at Dotty Dumplings Dowery, followed by a little touch up ironing and bedtime at 10:30 p.m.  Up at 7:00 a.m. then teaching a classroom of 200 bankers from 10:15 to 11:40 a.m., mainly telling them that the commercial real estate sky is falling.  (It’s not, yet.)

No time for lunch before a 2 hours drive back through Milwaukee up to Mequon for a round at Ozaukee.  Fortunately, a 3 hours round there gets me to the airport with 30 minutes to spare before my 8 p.m. flight through O-Hare.  I arrive back in Nashville and hit the sack at 1:30 a.m.  I'm at work first thing this morning.

I place my rater credentials and credit card on both pro shop counters, netting one full payment and one comp where they don’t take credit cards but I offer cash. 

I’m neither complaining nor bragging.  It is what it is.  I’m guessing your mind is already made up and frankly, I see both sides.  There are no secret handshakes and nothing to de-mystify.  I enjoy it immensely and it's been a nice source of happiness in my life over the past dozen years. 

For what it’s worth.

Mike
 

« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 01:49:48 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2017, 02:12:14 PM »
How were the cheese curds at Dotty's? ;D


Thoughts on Pine Hills? Maybe the most under-rated course in the state, from all reports, with a few others in contention.

Billsteele

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2017, 02:16:38 PM »
It's even more glamorous than I imagined.

Steve Fekety

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2017, 02:22:59 PM »
Do you take notes on the courses?  Complete a rating worksheet?  Or was the purpose just to play golf and not necessarily rate the courses?

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2017, 03:49:21 PM »
Steve, thanks for those excellent questions. 

The first thing I do when I get home is get out my pig ear notcher and cut another v-groove in my leather belt.  Then I find a way to work my visit into this website after a week or two. 

Actually, my overall approach is pretty simple:  look around, hit the ball, look around and hit it again.  I prefer to play alone to try to figure out the holes as they present themselves and if time permits I hit an extra ball or two if my poor play hasn't left me with a reasonable idea of how the hole might play.  I'll roll a few balls around on the green if I see something interesting and more routinely look for previous hole locations.  For example, I can't believe they pin the extreme front right corner of the 17th green at Ozaukee.  I don't typically make notes, but will on occasion sketch green contours that I find interesting, like the tractor seat green at Knoll West.  The next day I typically look at aerials and then a day or so later might attempt a stick drawing of the routing from memory.  Like Toby Keith I'm not as good as I once was.   I do take a few photographs with permission but they are usually limited to a unique design elements, like the giant hump in the green of one of the  par fives at Ozaukee.

By nature I am not detailed oriented.  Where Author Henri Nouwen looks at Rembrandt's The Return of the Prodigal Son and notices that one of the father's hands is masculine while the other is feminine,  I just see an amazing painting.   I do admire those who can  more precisely analyze a golf hole and entire course. 

I do complete ballots for the courses I play as the criteria are an excellent roadmap for organizing my thoughts.  I must admit, however, that I have a pretty good feeling of where the score will settle. 

Also, I never play just to play given the deterioration in my game.   I don't keep score, but typically scape it around in 90 strokes or so.  I was once a 4 so I do understand the game.

Hope this helps. 

Kindest regards,

Mike
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 04:04:19 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2017, 03:55:15 PM »
Bill, glad to hear from you.  My glamour lifestyle is well documented, though I'm no Bill Schultz.  I hope you're well.

Phil, my sand wedge got a work-out at Pine Hills, from both sand and land. As Sean Arble might say, I have a lot of time for Pine Hills and Ozaukee though they won't hit any lists any time soon.  I was surprised at how "strong" both courses were.  More later.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2017, 04:40:36 PM »
Have they done any tree removal at Ozaukee?  its been a few years but to paraphrase a line from Brad Klein, there was a lot of golf course there; the problem is you can't see it.  I have found that carrying a Dictaphone (old technology, I know) is useful in remembering details without having to slow down to write notes.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2017, 04:46:29 PM »
Shel, the course is over-treed but the impact is visual - the overall course appears claustrophobic in the absence of longer vistas.  Individually, the fairways and playing corridors are extremely generous with trees rarely impacting play and the turf is superior.   Much like Pine Hills the strength of the course is in the two shot holes which don't suffer fools at all.

Mike 
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2017, 05:56:00 PM »
I have found that carrying a Dictaphone (old technology, I know) is useful in remembering details without having to slow down to write notes.
Or for a more modern take you can use the Voice Memos or similar app that comes standard on any mobile phone.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2017, 06:27:42 PM »

[size=78%] As Sean Arble might say, I have a lot of time for Pine Hills and Ozaukee though they won't hit any lists any time soon.  I was surprised at how "strong" both courses were.  More later.[/size]

Mike


My critique with the "rating process" is there is very little incentive for a Rater to:
  • Play the second tier course;
  • Complement the second tier course. Why not have a searchable database of rated courses?
To be fair to the traditional Rater entities (GW, GD, Golf...), this website has at times in the past bashed some Raters that brought other raters to second tier courses in first tier areas. Specifically, Fenway in Westchester and Seawane on Long Island are two that I remember. Raters were accused of stocking votes to get them on the Top 100. Well of course they did, the system is geared to Top 100 status.


I complement Mike H for his choices, but if nobody knows about these courses, what value do the Raters really provide? The same 400 courses have been re-distributed here in the USA for the last 7 years as golf development went flat.


I literally have no desire to play "The Open Rota" when I go overseas. I want to play the "Arble Rota" and dammit I might just do a "Winter Tour". Thank goodness for GCA.com.

Finally, Cape Arundel and Yale are two courses that have been banned at various times by editors. Centralized authority is corrupt as they are getting consulting gigs on the side.


Again, I appreciate Mike H's picks and process, but what value did it bring to golf?
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2017, 07:37:30 PM »
Sweeney

I too wonder why private clubs with no aspirations of significant national membership or visitor fees bother with raters. I fully understand why publics and privates with visitors get in the game. It is potentially very cheap advertising...and the best sort of advertising.  Folks have to decide for themselves if this brings any value to "golf"...though I am not sure what that means or if it is relevant. 

I like to play all manner of courses as a rater, but often times the courses I am interested in are not on the rating list.  It seems simply trying to get courses listed is a job in itself.  I am dumbfounded as to the courses not included in GB&I and some that are.


Bogey...did you enjoy the short trip? 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2017, 09:22:16 PM »
Mike, I have no problem stipulating that my meager visits bring no value to golf.  I do think there is merit in elevating the relevance, study and appreciation of golf architecture, generally collectively. I have li ttle doubt that anyone on this site is interested in my opinions. I, do however enjoy sharing them. I'll try a clumsy analogy:  Our cottage was built in 1911 and is on the national historical register nothwithstanding some clumsy renovations over the years, including popcorn ceiling application, laminate flooring installed over original heart wood flooring and windows that have been painted shut with the weights and pulleys long gone.  Probably a Doak 5 and no better than the 20th most historical home on our street.  That said, should someone interested in old homes want to see it, we'd love to have them over for a quick tour and cup of coffee with absolutely no expectations or aspirations of getting a spread in Architectural Digest.  We'd likely enjoy ourselves, make new friends and learn a thing or two. 

Sean, I had a great time - thanks for asking.  It would have only been better if I had managed to lose another match to you. 

Kindest regards,

Mike
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 09:28:22 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2017, 09:50:05 PM »
Mike, I have no problem stipulating that my meager visits bring no value to golf. 


I disagree!!


I am saying that your visits bring no value under the current structure of the rating magazines (magazines = a dated word). How can Ran/GCA/Golf.com implement the "Arble Process" where your visits, to what sounds like a pretty cool 2nd tier golf course, could bring some outside revenues ?


Just recently, I was complemented on Facebook by a new GCA friend who did a "Maine Island Tour" in July 2017 with his wife and said he was inspired by this post that is now 11 years old :)


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=25025.0


My comment was about the magazine process, not you individually. The rating for Top 100 is dated and tired. Access to the second tier clubs has obviously changed, and they are mostly hospitable at the right time and day of the week. How can we help them and golf? National Golf Links is going to be fine without us...
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2017, 10:10:52 PM »
I've always felt like someone is getting ripped off on these combo business/rater trips. There is neither enough time to properly evaluate a course or do the mentoring/networking that is expected by the stockholders paying the bills. I'd hate to put an employee on a plane not knowing who he is working for.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2017, 10:31:02 PM »
I thought that was a top-flight post, Mike.
I've often complained about rankings/ratings - but yours was the perfect reminder that I can hate the ratings and love the rater!
Keep enjoying all the good things and blessings in your life, including all your golf-related travels and analysis. (As my father used to say about wine: if God didn't want us to drink he wouldn't have made grapes! A Catholic thing, I think  :) ) Never mind us knuckleheads...
Peter

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2017, 12:51:14 AM »

Also, I never play just to play given the deterioration in my game.   I don't keep score, but typically scape it around in 90 strokes or so.  I was once a 4 so I do understand the game.



Mike,


When you "rate" or play a course, what features stand out to you now that you overlooked in your better playing days?  A lot of good players completely miss that forced carries can be a challenge.  Curious to hear what stands out to you since you have evaluated courses as a good player and an average one.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2017, 04:11:17 AM »

Sean, I had a great time - thanks for asking.   

Kindest regards,

Mike

Bogey

I reckon thats the main thing.  If you enjoy the process you will put effort into it. 

Sweeney

What would you suggest as an alternative to the magazine rating process?  Do you realize how much time goes into Ran's write ups?  And that is without getting to the course and walking around. 

IMO more time should be spent on 2nd/3rd tier course lists.  They don't have to be rankings, just interesting courses in and of themselves which may or may not have just missed out on top 100 or 200 lists.  As you say, the same X number of courses get the attention every ranking list.  Why not create those lists every 3 years or so and do something different the other years?  My guess is this approach may hurt mag income.  Advertising companies want to be associated with Pine Valley, not poh dunk nowhere.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2017, 04:28:45 AM »
I've always felt like someone is getting ripped off on these combo business/rater trips. There is neither enough time to properly evaluate a course or do the mentoring/networking that is expected by the stockholders paying the bills. I'd hate to put an employee on a plane not knowing who he is working for.


Fake news!


Matt Ginella is the closest thing we have to a full-time reviewer - traveler in golf. I like him, follow him on Instagram, and he is a member of my club in California :) He gets paid to be a "Links Souldier", and while I get a discount as a member of Goat Hill Park, I pay for the fancy shirts from John Ashworth (Goat Hill's main financial backer, so I am happy to pay for the cool logos)!


I would genuinely trust Mike H's review more that Matt Ginella or Tom Doak's who have professional relationships tied into their reviews. Bogey's reviews (if they were available) are obviously for the "love of the game" and anyone who can hold their own in front of 200+ commercial real estate bankers is NOT lacking in confidence, has an opinion, and can state a point of view.


Mike H is an "Artisan Reviewer" of "Arble's Army" and we (lovers of golf) still have not figured out how to properly collect, interpret, and disseminate that information.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2017, 04:36:09 AM »


Sweeney

What would you suggest as an alternative to the magazine rating process?  Do you realize how much time goes into Ran's write ups?  And that is without getting to the course and walking around. 



Mr Moore, an excellent writer, remarked how much time and effort by Ran went into the review of Cape A. That will always be the separation of church and state here at GCA.


If there was a way to tie in this database with some simple course reviews, that would be great:


https://fusiontables.google.com/DataSource?snapid=S593446TZ0s

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2017, 04:42:30 AM »

Mike H is an "Artisan Reviewer" of "Arble's Army" and we (lovers of golf) still have not figured out how to properly collect, interpret, and disseminate that information.

Sweeney

Interpretation is ever so difficult because we all have our different slants/highlights etc. But the great thing about interpreting and reviewing is people, opinions and courses change over time.  It is fantastic when I play a course several times over the years and gradually come to appreciate it more and more.  I think Worplesdon is one of those places in recent memory which has shown itself to be better than first or second plays may reveal.

Yes Ran...he only writes about course he admires so we don't get his full blown take when courses fail to make the mark.  That is part and parcel of his position.

David's project was heroic!  Unfortunately, it really requires a team of people to keep it up to date.

BTW...check it out  8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix6wTN_CH4g

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 04:52:00 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2017, 07:56:09 AM »
I for one enjoy all of the photo tours and reviews on GCA.  Particularly appreciated are frequent Posters because it does not take long to get a decent sense of what they value (and do not) and therefore their views become a good guide to what I might like (or not). For example, I have never had the pleasure of meeting Sean A. but his views of courses that I also have played are quite in line with mine.  If I ever get to make the bucket list trip to England and Scotland, I know that I can count on his reviews to help guide the journey.  So everyone, keep the reviews coming.


Ira

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2017, 09:10:56 AM »
 8)  Bogey,


So given your counter interaction, there appeared to be a 50% bottom line value to your rater presence... where it matters to the business versus the subjective pay it forward investment.  From my limited time in WI, I find the folks there pretty engaging, so did you share thoughts after the rounds or just get on with the schedule?


steve




Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2017, 01:46:39 PM »
Mike:
How much do you try to learn about a course before playing and rating it?  I've never been a rater, but I find that when I learn a lot before playing a course the first time, that can affect my view of the course--either because I have a general sense of how good it is, because I know details about how it's evolved, or because I know to look for specific things that I might not otherwise notice (and probably for other reasons too). 

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2017, 05:55:34 PM »
Steve, I find the people of Wisconsin to be genuine and friendly - wonderful really.  I always stop in the golf shop after play to express my appreciation at a minimum to let folks know I enjoyed the golf course, a universal truth.  I do enjoy a brief sit-down over a beverage and generally limit my comments to honest compliments - after all courses have something to offer.  I avoid criticisms or numbers.  I also always acknowledge how awkward it is to request access to play a private club and how exceptional I find their hospitality.  Though no one has asked, I generally pay approximately 80% of the time.  Unfortunately at Ozaukee and Pine Hills the shops were closed at day's end.  I'll follow up with a note, likely an e-mail. 

Carl, honestly I don't visit too many dogs - at least not in my book.   I do tend to visit courses not on any list - the junior varsity if you will.  Those courses tend to suit my sensibilities in more ways than one.  When available I do like to research in advance, particularly about the club's history and will always search this site for threads or comments. 

Barney, you are an excellent corporate watchdog. If you like I'll try to send you copies of my performance evaluations.   "They're real - and they're spectacular!"

Kindest regards,

Mike
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 05:57:44 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Days in the Life of a Rater
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2017, 06:03:25 PM »
Sweens, it's been 30 years ago since the Mrs. and I visited Kennebunkport and stayed at the Captain Lord Mansion.  I think we'll return next year now that I see the proximity of Cape Arundel and Ran's excellent review.  I can't get enough of The Old Man's work after visiting upstate NY.   Lobstah and Travis - winner, winner.

Cheers.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....