[Tom_Doak]

In the 1959 US Open at Winged Foor Billy Casper laid up on the Par 3 3rd in all four rounds. Made Par every time.

I had thought of this fact, because it was featured in the original World Atlas of Golf.


But, my thought after your citation is:  Can you imagine a similar circumstance in modern golf?


Today's players are going for 650-yard par-5 holes in two.  Laying up on a par-3 is a bit out of their wheelhouse.  Of course, the TOUR makes sure they don't have to face a difficult green where it would make any sense to not just attack the pin.

[John Connolly]

The Road Hole at The Old Course. With a back left pin, caddie suggested to me a long and left approach near the 18th tee for a chip or putt. Which is what I did - and played a beautiful pitch up to 10 feet and then 3-jacked it for double .... but that's not the point!!

[Tom_Doak]

The Road Hole at The Old Course. With a back left pin, caddie suggested to me a long and left approach near the 18th tee for a chip or putt. Which is what I did - and played a beautiful pitch up to 10 feet and then 3-jacked it for double .... but that's not the point!!

Did your caddie tell you the full history of that strategy?

[John Connolly]

No, but I'm all ears.

[Peter Pallotta]

In the 1959 US Open at Winged Foot Billy Casper laid up on the Par 3 3rd in all four rounds. Made Par every time.

It takes a special person, and a particularly strong-minded golf pro -- then and now. Mr Casper always walked to the beat of his own drum. There's the story of playing a round with Ben Hogan, early in his career; young Casper scored better than the old master. Walking off the 18th, Hogan noted a nearby food stand and said "if you couldn't putt you'd be selling hot dogs for a living". (Or something like that). It might've shattered another man; it didn't Billy.
I bet an architect could walk right up to a tour pro with a one shot lead and one hole to play and tell him outright: "Your best chance by far to par this hole is to lay up"....and the pro still wouldn't do it.   

[Tom_Doak]

No, but I'm all ears.

Jones' closest call during his Grand Slam year was in the first of the four events:  the Amateur Championship at St. Andrews, where he had to come from behind in his fourth-round match against Cyril Tolley.  At the 17th, Jones had driven left and had no angle to the flag, and decided on playing around to the left of the Road bunker, which almost no one ever does. 


The match had a huge gallery, and Jones did his best to get the marshals to move them back before playing the shot, because the gallery might unfairly backstop his ball from going in the Swilcan Burn.  Nevertheless, the ball did go into the gallery, and some people questioned the play afterwards.  I can't remember if he won the hole or just got a key half, but it was written about for many years:  Jones wrote about it in GOLF IS MY GAME, which is why I remember it.


Jones actually won the match at the 19th, putting his third shot between Tolley's ball and the hole for a stymie, which Tolley could not negotiate.

[Thomas Dai]

The match had a huge gallery, and Jones did his best to get the marshals to move them back before playing the shot, because the gallery might unfairly backstop his ball from going in the Swilcan Burn. 

The cynic in me wonders if some players would be inclined to play whilst the crowd were in position to stop a ball going into the burn (sic).
atb

[Tim Martin]

There are a myriad of examples with early pin positions that a short chip is preferable to a downhill putt. Yale 7 or Wannamoisett 7 come to mind.

[Niall C]

Niall:


Why would that be a design flaw?


I have built many holes where you can be better off missing just off the green [in short grass, on the correct side of the hole] than aiming for the middle of the green and missing to the wrong side [having to putt over a big hump].  At Lost Dunes, there are several holes like that on any given day, depending on hole locations.  At Crystal Downs [or Augusta, or Merion], there are a few holes where you're better missing just short, than having a "green in regulation" but being above the hole with a steep downhill putt.


For me it's just an attempt to make the golfer redefine what "playing safe" means, and to make him think a little.

Tom

I never said, or thought, it was a design fault. If there is anything to take out of my post it is probably that (some) of the players started going for it when the wind started to die down a bit which just shows you play the conditions. Secondly, I made comment on the hole in the context of the round. After all I'm not sure you would want 18 holes like that, or certainly I wouldn't.

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

In the 1959 US Open at Winged Foor Billy Casper laid up on the Par 3 3rd in all four rounds. Made Par every time.

I had thought of this fact, because it was featured in the original World Atlas of Golf.
But, my thought after your citation is:  Can you imagine a similar circumstance in modern golf?
Today's players are going for 650-yard par-5 holes in two.  Laying up on a par-3 is a bit out of their wheelhouse.  Of course, the TOUR makes sure they don't have to face a difficult green where it would make any sense to not just attack the pin.

Perhaps laying up on a par-3 is NOW out of the Pro's wheelhouse because relative to how far they hit the ball par-3's are pretty short.
Give them a say 290-340 yd hole with horrid, nasty stuff around the green or OB close by. Call it a par-3. I wonder if there'd be lay-ups?
Atb

[Charles Lund]

The first time I played Barnbougle Dunes, I had a caddie and was playing solo.  On the seventh hole, a short par three hold told me to miss the green to the right, because I would have a better chance of making par from there.  The green has deep bunkering to the left and short.  Most shots landing on the green go long and end up at the bottom of a steep downslope.

By that hole, I had confidence in the caddie and followed his insructions.  it made either an easy bogey or a relatively short putt for an up and down par.  I have since played it about five more times.  Never got a ball to stay on the green. Very difficult up and down from long and down the hill.  Don't recall playing with anyone who kept it on the green.  Wind makes it  diabolical short par three.

Charles Lund

[Joe Sponcia]

Lookout Mountain (Raynor) 16th hole (par 3) is one you are better to be short, than on the green.  Borderline too much slope for the green speeds, but par always feels like birdie. 

[archie_struthers]

 


Mike Young.  How do you play that 11th hole . Sure as hell the only way I see is to get lucky and make a ten footer, for par or bogey ! Lol

[Keith Grande]

A friend was playing a tournament at Kiawah Ocean course with heavy headwind, he played it to the left of the green which required a shorter carry on the par-3 17th, chipped up and made par.  Most players who tried for the green made 5, or worse.

[Thomas Dai]

2nd at Royal Dornoch. 15th at Cruden Bay. 6th at West Sussex. All are par-3's.
atb

[jeffwarne]

Did Hogan not also do something similar at the 16th Carnoustie in his one Open there ?

The other week I was a scorer at the Open qualifier at Gailes on the par 3 12th hole. The hole from the back tees is 220 yards and on the day the wind (2 club) and rain was in the players face. The green is also a plateau green that is surrounded by rubbish at back and sides so any miss either pin high or long could produce a big number.

Of the first 19 groups through, no one even went for the green they all played short and went for the chip and putt. Later when the wind eased off a bit they started to go for it although many still laid up. In the context of the round (next hole is a short driveable par 4 for these guys) then I think theres nothing wrong with that.

Niall

Guilty
except I wasn't laying up when I played that hole
Talk about a course that changes from white tees to blue tees-yikes

[Carl Johnson]

For me it depends on where the pin is.

[Mark_Fine]

This absolutely depends on hole location.  If you are for example playing #16 at Augusta and the hole is cut tight to the edge of the green near the water/bunker, would you prefer to have a flat chip or putt from just off the green/fringe or be on the the green up top putting down that steep slope?  I think the answer is obvious.  This is no different than saying it is sometimes better to be in the rough vs in the fairway when being on the correct side to that day's hole location gives you a much better angle to the pin. 


And by the way this has nothing to do with whether you are a better chipper or putter as you always have the option to do either regardless of where your ball is located. 

[Carl Nichols]

I agree that it's often better to be off the green than on the green but on the wrong side of the hole.  But Ben's question seemed to ask a tougher question--whether you would ever prefer to be off the green than anywhere on the green, even the best side.   I can't imagine such a situation, especially given my short game, but perhaps it exists. 

[Carl Johnson]

I agree that it's often better to be off the green than on the green but on the wrong side of the hole.  But Ben's question seemed to ask a tougher question--whether you would ever prefer to be off the green than anywhere on the green, even the best side.   I can't imagine such a situation, but perhaps it exists.

I'm not certain I understand what you are saying.  For example, would I rather be off the green than on the green, one inch from the hole on the "wrong side"?  I do believe I'd take green in that situation.  So I don't see how Ben can be looking at it that way.  I'm reminded of game in which a great player bets a "so, so" player he can beat him by playing off the tee, but allowing the other player to be on the green "in par" -- with the great player getting to place the other's ball on the green.

[Carl Nichols]

I agree that it's often better to be off the green than on the green but on the wrong side of the hole.  But Ben's question seemed to ask a tougher question--whether you would ever prefer to be off the green than anywhere on the green, even the best side.   I can't imagine such a situation, but perhaps it exists.

I'm not certain I understand what you are saying.  For example, would I rather be off the green than on the green, one inch from the hole on the "wrong side"?  I do believe I'd take green in that situation.  So I don't see how Ben can be looking at it that way.  I'm reminded of game in which a great player bets a "so, so" player he can beat him by playing off the tee, but allowing the other player to be on the green "in par" -- with the great player getting to place the other's ball on the green.

I agree the "one inch" scenario is silly.  But since there are so many examples where it's better to be off the green than on the green, what I thought he was possibly getting at were situations where you'd rather be playing from off the green than having a similar length shot on the green, even if from the proper or same side of the hole. So, for example, I could hypothetically imagine someone preferring to have a long pitch vs a long putt (from the same angle) if a green is in very poor condition.   

[Carl Johnson]

I agree that it's often better to be off the green than on the green but on the wrong side of the hole.  But Ben's question seemed to ask a tougher question--whether you would ever prefer to be off the green than anywhere on the green, even the best side.   I can't imagine such a situation, but perhaps it exists.

I'm not certain I understand what you are saying.  For example, would I rather be off the green than on the green, one inch from the hole on the "wrong side"?  I do believe I'd take green in that situation.  So I don't see how Ben can be looking at it that way.  I'm reminded of game in which a great player bets a "so, so" player he can beat him by playing off the tee, but allowing the other player to be on the green "in par" -- with the great player getting to place the other's ball on the green.

I agree the "one inch" scenario is silly.  But since there are so many examples where it's better to be off the green than on the green, what I thought he was possibly getting at were situations where you'd rather be playing from off the green than having a similar length shot on the green, even if from the proper or same side of the hole. So, for example, I could hypothetically imagine someone preferring to have a long pitch vs a long putt (from the same angle) if a green is in very poor condition.   

Yep, what you're saying makes sense.  Ben -- please clear this up for us!  Thanks.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

I've been told that on #13 at Olympic Lake (172 yd. par 3), especially in a match, it is a smart play to lay-up in front of the bunker fronting the green. This takes a bad lie, in this, and the other new ridiculously deep steep bunkers out of play, as well as the lateral hazard left of the green where any shot with too much draw will invariably end up.


You'll make 4... maybe up and down for a 3, instead of a possibly making a 5.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
I hear you about your example at #13 at Olympic but if you are already on the green or have the option to be on the green then your point doesn't make any sense.  I can see no scenario where one would prefer to be off the green than on the green IF both balls are in the best spot relative to hole location (as in my August #16 example).  I thought we were talking "architecture" here, and not putting or chipping abilities? 

[Matthew Petersen]

I've seen plenty of huge greens where I (a better chipper than lag putter) would rather be off the green rather than facing some kind of treacherous 80 foot putt.


But even on smaller greens, if they're fast, I think chipping uphill is generally preferable to putting downhill. At Spyglass I consciously played for the front edge of any green that was in the front half of the green. I missed some greens short but got up and down all day long. Some of that is down to confidence with your irons, too. I'd probably rather have 10 downhill 12 footers vs. uphill chips in a round, because there's a pretty good chance a few of the putts will find the hole and your chances of 3-putting are probably not all that different than just getting up and down. The problem is when you're 15 feet above the hole, or 20 feet, or 25 feet. And I'm not a good enough iron player to really control that so essentially playing for par is a better strategy.

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