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Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2017, 10:11:28 AM »


Tom, I find the entire industry to be something you can't ask to join. It's one of the greatest mysteries of any business- how does one "make it" and another not. Given how many of us love the game, and want to improve it by building great work, what exactly are the reasons some get the jobs and others don't?? I've given up trying to figure that out. I just think it's an example of rub of the green, or golfs version of predestination. As someone once said, the harder I practice the luckier I get.

Everyone successful has an influential promoter behind the scenes. Occasionally, they are unaware of their presence at the outset. It's someone who suggests they should be included in the mix or someone you tells another influential member at another club to use them. I've never believed this to be a business of hard sell, but it is a business of influence and reputation. Some reputations are borrowed or extended, others are earned.

The one thing I have learnt is the amount of extra time spent by those who are more successful away from golf course projects mixing with those that matter. If you won't or don't do it, you have only yourself to blame when you can't get anywhere. It is a business of who you know, but perhaps even more importantly, who knows you and likes your work.




As for the whole Pete Rose business, he played to win at all cost ... I admired him as a player and despise him as a human being. That's a strong volatile combination ...
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 10:16:53 AM by Ian Andrew »
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Peter Pallotta

Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2017, 02:21:26 PM »
Benny Goodman to Glenn Miller in 1935, when the former had become a star and the latter was still struggling to form his own band and asked BG what the secret was to 'making it':
"I don't know the secret, Glenn, but I do know this - don't quit".

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2017, 02:56:22 PM »
Benny Goodman to Glenn Miller in 1935, when the former had become a star and the latter was still struggling to form his own band and asked BG what the secret was to 'making it':
"I don't know the secret, Glenn, but I do know this - don't quit".


Precisely. Who among us doesn't regularly use Benny Goodman-Glenn Miller anecdotes, am I right?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 02:58:02 PM by Brian Hoover »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2017, 03:38:42 PM »

Andy,


First, welcome to the insane asylum......hope you wear a bullet proof vest when you are at the keyboard!


As to the premise, my first thought was the disgraced Pete Rose, not how he played as Charlie Hustle.  Not sure which you were trying to get at. 


There are a lot of Charlie Hustle types in this biz. 


As to the disgraced architects, over 40 years in this biz, I can only think of a few in that time that were real outcasts.  Many years ago, one of them tried to join ASGCA and RTJ came to the meeting to inform us he didn't want him in due to some ethical boundary.  Maybe 30 years ago, a potential applicant was discussed.  After lunch, one of the older members in his area walked in dramatically, posted a newspaper article about how the guy was accused of taking kickbacks, etc.  He never applied, never got in.


Rumor has it RTJ also personally stonewalled DW from getting in ASGCA, but I don't think he was an outcast.  Ditto all his protégés who never joined but were always welcomed in the industry as a whole, due to their good work.


I am unaware of older instances, like from back in the Golden Age, but would be interested in hearing a few if they are even partially known.  As hard as it is to confirm innuendo about current or recent architects, it has to be 2X as difficult to ferret out any dirt from the old days.


By and large, it is a pretty above board biz......cut throat, but above board.



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2017, 04:56:30 PM »
Pete was a great baseball player, no one can argue against that. As a manager, maybe not such a good guy. One thing that I do know is, he has probably forgotten more about the game of baseball than most people know. He speaks on baseball on 700WLW (our local radio station her in Cincy) and is really insightful into the game. Kinda like Bobby Knight is to basketball, he really knows his stuff.


Not sure this is a fair comparison here. As far as Art Hills goes, he created what he was paid to do. If Art was offered other projects I bet he could have churned out some better stuff, but I just don't really know. His courses are playable and OK for what you get. Typically the centerpiece of a housing development.
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

BCowan

Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2017, 05:09:53 PM »
Pete was a great baseball player, no one can argue against that. As a manager, maybe not such a good guy. One thing that I do know is, he has probably forgotten more about the game of baseball than most people know. He speaks on baseball on 700WLW (our local radio station her in Cincy) and is really insightful into the game. Kinda like Bobby Knight is to basketball, he really knows his stuff.


Not sure this is a fair comparison here. As far as Art Hills goes, he created what he was paid to do. If Art was offered other projects I bet he could have churned out some better stuff, but I just don't really know. His courses are playable and OK for what you get. Typically the centerpiece of a housing development.


Richard,


My friend, u owe Pete an apology.  He has 3 rings and leads with most hits I believe.  Does Art have a course in the top 200?  Bay Harbor is supposidly a world class site.


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2017, 06:29:27 PM »
We've already equated Donald Ross to Pete Rose in the above comments....


So my question is, what skeletons did Donald have in his closet?

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2017, 06:41:58 PM »
In a few respects, it is Donald Trump. Rose was a great player but shunned because of his gambling. Trump, not a great architectural inspirational owner tip he got it late, is shunned like Rose
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2017, 09:13:11 PM »
Mike, interesting take on DW. I wish there were more documented about his industry reputation, other than his personal problems. But he sure was the consummate work horse knocking out singles and doubles over a short period of time. I'm not too sure he didn't have a larger impact than RTJ on moving design towards the aerial game. For that he should be banned!


Peter, I agree, the description of regional architect concept sure ha changed. It's a very competitive biz, even for the smallest of jobs. Many more design build/ in house processes have had a major impact on guys making a living in the traditional Gca sense. But, it is still the proving grounds to even have a chance to get asked to a seat at the table of a national job. Without churning out the singles and double at your local munis, you don't have much to talk about when you get that seat. I also find it has less and less about your experience, and more about relationships and perception.


Tom, I find the entire industry to be something you can't ask to join. It's one of the greatest mysteries of any business- how does one "make it" and another not. Given how many of us love the game, and want to improve it by building great work, what exactly are the reasons some get the jobs and others don't?? I've given up trying to figure that out. I just think it's an example of rub of the green, or golfs version of predestination. As someone once said, the harder I practice the luckier I get.

Andy,
DW is one of my favorites.  Kept things simple.   I sort of look at adapting to the aerial game as an evolution brought about by equipment and therefore archies adjusted. 
As for the industry.  I consider it almost a fake industry.  The in house build design/build is the future.  (JB will disagree with me)  think about it.  As Ian mentions you got to work connections The "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" has been going on for years in the architect/ general contractor method.  And yet think about how many guys who got a lot of work got multiple jobs from the same developer or resort.  At least one of the old signatures expected a national irrigation/equipment company to send him or one of  his family every job that came their way.    Or we can go back to 1984 when Toro , without thinking signed AP to a contract promoting consumer riding mowers all because Pennzoil had a commercial showing his father's old Toro Parkmaster using Pennzoil.  Within a month JN was using Rainbird.  It is a cutthroat business and if you don't have  few that can't say anything nice about you then you are not getting their work.   I think the other phenom going on for the last few years is so many focus on renovation type work and get absorbed in it instead of trying to find guys somewhere doing new work.  Oh well....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2017, 09:33:11 PM »

As for the whole Pete Rose business, he played to win at all cost ... I admired him as a player and despise him as a human being. That's a strong volatile combination ...

Ian,
Howdy.  I am assuming you must have met Pete Rose.  I ask that because I have a very good friend who is one of the best family men I know, is a good coach and is loved and respected by every player I have ever met who played for him.  He won an NCAA BB championship at UCLA and the media made him out to be a monster over the rest of his coaching career.  I've heard so many guys say how they despise him as a person and yet they have never met him.  Watching his media issues unfold taught me a lesson. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2017, 09:51:14 PM »

Andy,

As to the premise, my first thought was the disgraced Pete Rose, not how he played as Charlie Hustle.  Not sure which you were trying to get at. 

As to the disgraced architects, over 40 years in this biz, I can only think of a few in that time that were real outcasts.  Many years ago, one of them tried to join ASGCA and RTJ came to the meeting to inform us he didn't want him in due to some ethical boundary.  Maybe 30 years ago, a potential applicant was discussed.  After lunch, one of the older members in his area walked in dramatically, posted a newspaper article about how the guy was accused of taking kickbacks, etc.  He never applied, never got in.


Rumor has it RTJ also personally stonewalled DW from getting in ASGCA, but I don't think he was an outcast.  Ditto all his protégés who never joined but were always welcomed in the industry as a whole, due to their good work.


I am unaware of older instances, like from back in the Golden Age, but would be interested in hearing a few if they are even partially known.  As hard as it is to confirm innuendo about current or recent architects, it has to be 2X as difficult to ferret out any dirt from the old days.


By and large, it is a pretty above board biz......cut throat, but above board.

Jeff,
I though Andy had mentioned he did not want this to become an ASGCA thread but the above sounds as if you are using ASGCA to measure "outcast".   Who are the "disgraced" architects you mention?  I've never met one but I have met slimeballs with more being in ASGCA than outside of it.  And for RTJ to discuss or mention ethics with anyone is a joke.  Ethics is between the client and the architect not the architect and the guy who did not get the job.  Remember the two old quotes: " they always like you until you become competition" and "pay close attention to people who don't clap when you win."    DW drove that dude crazy....

peace....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2017, 12:50:34 AM »
Design a course for a client wanting to host a major and then go bet against it. And don't be nice about it...Pete Rose is a fly n the ointment.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2017, 09:08:05 AM »


Andy,

As to the premise, my first thought was the disgraced Pete Rose, not how he played as Charlie Hustle.  Not sure which you were trying to get at. 

As to the disgraced architects, over 40 years in this biz, I can only think of a few in that time that were real outcasts.  Many years ago, one of them tried to join ASGCA and RTJ came to the meeting to inform us he didn't want him in due to some ethical boundary.  Maybe 30 years ago, a potential applicant was discussed.  After lunch, one of the older members in his area walked in dramatically, posted a newspaper article about how the guy was accused of taking kickbacks, etc.  He never applied, never got in.


Rumor has it RTJ also personally stonewalled DW from getting in ASGCA, but I don't think he was an outcast.  Ditto all his protégés who never joined but were always welcomed in the industry as a whole, due to their good work.


I am unaware of older instances, like from back in the Golden Age, but would be interested in hearing a few if they are even partially known.  As hard as it is to confirm innuendo about current or recent architects, it has to be 2X as difficult to ferret out any dirt from the old days.


By and large, it is a pretty above board biz......cut throat, but above board.

Jeff,
I though Andy had mentioned he did not want this to become an ASGCA thread but the above sounds as if you are using ASGCA to measure "outcast".   Who are the "disgraced" architects you mention?  I've never met one but I have met slimeballs with more being in ASGCA than outside of it.  And for RTJ to discuss or mention ethics with anyone is a joke.  Ethics is between the client and the architect not the architect and the guy who did not get the job.  Remember the two old quotes: " they always like you until you become competition" and "pay close attention to people who don't clap when you win."    DW drove that dude crazy....

peace....


Mike,


Given Andy didn't want this, nor should it be about ASGCA, I was hesitant to post that.  However, I usually feel stuck in my little office and most of what I hear about the industry/profession is when I get out to various meetings, including ASGCA. 


As I said, those are the only two examples from 40 years I can recall.  One was more serious, beyond RTJ wondering about their ethics.  I Google golf architects crimes, and did find an article, I think discussed here about a Florida architect who was convicted of  tax evasion in 2003.  Forgot about him, but the article said he was sentenced to prison.....so his practice ended.


Agree ethics is between client and architect in general, but also recall it defined as how you act when no one is watching, and in the case of tax evasion, obviously goes beyond the client. 


Also agree that asking an architect who "loses" a job is probably not the best person to ask.  As a group, we usually suspect someone else did something extra to get the job......but its usually effort and marketing, with nothing unethical about either.


As to Jones and his design-build, I think any architect who focuses on plans and competitive bids, and wonders how the owner gets the best price, perhaps won't consider design-build to be ethical.   But, it has been around forever.  As long as the client is happy with the result, by your definition, its ethical, and I agree.  The RTJ book did uncover some practices most of us knew about, a la, bidding to six family owned companies to give the appearance of good pricing and competitive bids.  Agree its unfortunate.  Pete Dye and others were much more upfront about their methods later on.


I still wonder if there were any similar criminal charges or tax evasion among the Golden Age architects.  Don't recall ever reading about them, but in those days, the press was a bit more forgiving.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2017, 10:05:57 AM »
Mike,


Given Andy didn't want this, nor should it be about ASGCA, I was hesitant to post that.  However, I usually feel stuck in my little office and most of what I hear about the industry/profession is when I get out to various meetings, including ASGCA. 


As I said, those are the only two examples from 40 years I can recall.  One was more serious, beyond RTJ wondering about their ethics.  I Google golf architects crimes, and did find an article, I think discussed here about a Florida architect who was convicted of  tax evasion in 2003.  Forgot about him, but the article said he was sentenced to prison.....so his practice ended.


Agree ethics is between client and architect in general, but also recall it defined as how you act when no one is watching, and in the case of tax evasion, obviously goes beyond the client. 


Also agree that asking an architect who "loses" a job is probably not the best person to ask.  As a group, we usually suspect someone else did something extra to get the job......but its usually effort and marketing, with nothing unethical about either.


As to Jones and his design-build, I think any architect who focuses on plans and competitive bids, and wonders how the owner gets the best price, perhaps won't consider design-build to be ethical.   But, it has been around forever.  As long as the client is happy with the result, by your definition, its ethical, and I agree.  The RTJ book did uncover some practices most of us knew about, a la, bidding to six family owned companies to give the appearance of good pricing and competitive bids.  Agree its unfortunate.  Pete Dye and others were much more upfront about their methods later on.


I still wonder if there were any similar criminal charges or tax evasion among the Golden Age architects.  Don't recall ever reading about them, but in those days, the press was a bit more forgiving.

Jeff,
You are getting your quotes all mixed up this morning.  I think the quote you mention was about character not ethics..and it was something like this"the true measure of character is what you do and how you act when nobody’s watching"  and then the John Wooden quote was "Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."   

And while we can both admit that ASGCA likes to hype "ethics" as one of their differentiates we know it's just hype.  So let's just talk about the industry and not ASGCA...anytime I see the words, ethics, reputation or character come up regarding a guys work it is usually from some guy who just got his ass beat....the real slimy stuff is stuff we will never know about because the parties are too smooth and too large. 
Just always watch for the guy that shakes your hand with two hands and blesses you.  Many a choir member has been porked by fine overweight ministers just hours after the two-hand handshake.   ;D ;D   
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCowan

Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2017, 10:16:21 AM »
 Back on topic, how isn't Tilly the Pete Rose of the Golden age?

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2017, 10:34:33 AM »
Back on topic, how isn't Tilly the Pete Rose of the Golden age?


Tillinghast had a much better haircut than Pete Rose.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2017, 11:30:15 AM »
Boy the weather is really nice outside!




« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 03:13:14 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2017, 12:49:42 PM »

Back on topic, how isn't Tilly the Pete Rose of the Golden age?


Ben,


Interesting...how so? 


Mike,


I think you are right in that the quote is about character, but of course, ethics is related.


I tend to get agitated with your agitation about the biz in general, and ASGCA in particular. :D   But, you have been lambasting nearly every organization and big name in the biz, and I just don't appoint myself muckraker, nor think I know enough about what goes on to post the crap you do.  I guess you are better connected than I!  I just don't see slime on the apparently constant basis you do.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2017, 12:53:37 PM »
My only disbelief is with those who think this is unique to the golf biz.


Nasty, slime ball, back room, buddy-buddy deals happen in every industry and government entity across the globe....sadly its default for everything and I don't see it changing anytime soon.




Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2017, 01:03:19 PM »

Kalen,


So, building personal relationships to further enhance your chances of being a successful professional are slime?  It's only unethical when money changes hands in a non-transparent way.  I see a lot of the former, but rarely the latter. 


As Mike and I have alluded, you can ask anyone who has just put $10K or more into trying to get a project, and are certainly greatly disappointed and wondering how the other guy managed to get it, but it rarely turns into something unethical IMHO.  Maybe Mike has seen more of that than I have, or maybe I just figured the other guy spent years instead of weeks building a relationship (Japanese were famous for this) and $20K instead of $10 on the final presentation to best me.


Unlike some industries, no one I know dreamed of the money when becoming a gca.......Of course, I am sure Pete Rose only dreamed of being a baseball player as a kid, and those bad influences came later in life, perhaps after he became a star.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2017, 01:24:19 PM »
Jeff,


Whether or not one thinks its slimy, probably depends on where you sit.  If you're on the outside, (with most everyone else), it appears that way.  But if you're in the inner circle, not so much.


In my mind, it really should be about finding the best proposal to meet one's goals, not so much about who has the deepest pockets and/or wines and dines the best.  I understand there is a substantial subjective component to the process, I really do get that.  But when you look at how these kinds of things unfold at the highest levels of corporate deals and government, its leads to nothing short of a rigged game. 




paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2017, 01:29:35 PM »
Have a good day!
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 03:11:58 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2017, 01:52:53 PM »
.... regret my participation




« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 04:18:30 PM by Ian Andrew »
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2017, 02:31:23 PM »


Jeff,


Whether or not one thinks its slimy, probably depends on where you sit.  If you're on the outside, (with most everyone else), it appears that way.  But if you're in the inner circle, not so much.


In my mind, it really should be about finding the best proposal to meet one's goals, not so much about who has the deepest pockets and/or wines and dines the best.  I understand there is a substantial subjective component to the process, I really do get that.  But when you look at how these kinds of things unfold at the highest levels of corporate deals and government, its leads to nothing short of a rigged game.


Again, don't know how to say it, but in the public arena, it is anything but a rigged game.  They go out of their way to avoid conflicts of interest. Sure, there are the 2% bad apples in any field.  And, in private sector it is still about who gives the most bang for buck.  Sure, a few owners, like Ian says, get an earful that they should hire only the hot architect du jour, and that is the subjective part.


But, whether private or public, what I see is not so much schmoozing, as a tendency to make the safe pick, to avoid future criticism.  I mean, if they pick Doak and for some reason, he produces a turd to end all turds, they can truly say that no one could see that coming.....


Yes, your perspective on the sales process is subjective and depends on where you sit. But it also depends quite a lot on your natural level of cynicism, skepticism, etc.

Even in Mike's "you scratch my back and I scratch yours" scenario, yes, certain architects and builders do form a relationship because each gets what they need from the other to be successful.  Sure, when given a chance, they may recommend each other based on positive results. But, not an uncontracted penny changes hands. 


Anyway, just my experience.  Your experience as a golf course architect might vary.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCowan

Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2017, 03:13:31 PM »

As Ian mentions you got to work connections The "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" has been going on for years in the architect/ general contractor method. 
Just for clarity ... that's not what I meant at all. The people who move the needle are "golfers" not industry people. They are well connected, well travelled and most importantly well respected for their knowledge. They provide many recommendations to other friends for who would be a good fit for a project.

P.S Never met Pete. Don't want to, but would vote him into the Hall of Fame

btw, When did hitting for average become dismissed as a high level skill ...


Ian,


Outside of Hanse who you are you referencing and I know of his in, name others?  Let's not use one to make as the norm.  Selling is everything and there is nothing wrong with it or immoral. 


This website is so one dimensionsal in its outlook and 3 by 5 note card of approved choices, like a college econ lecture.   :D