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AStaples

  • Karma: +0/-0
Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« on: July 17, 2017, 12:27:14 PM »

A thought crossed my mind the other day... does architecture have our version of an individual "banned" from certain activities normally reserved for the "greats"? I'm thinking of being chosen to design a Championship venue, or even consulting on tournament courses?


I'm sure the first name that comes to mind is Dick Wilson.  I'm also thinking of Greg Norman, or even Sir Nick (my perception not based on any facts).  I'm also thinking of the numerous outcomes that never see the light of day.


My intention is to not have this turn into an ASGCA discussion, of which, I'm a member. I'm thinking more along the lines of the "the business" of golf, and the larger entities that seem to weigh in on these global design decisions.


Andy Staples

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2017, 12:28:44 PM »

BCowan

Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2017, 12:40:23 PM »
When I think of Pete Rose I think of the baseball player, not the manager that had to babysit adults. 


Pete was clutch. Who wouldn't want Pete batting in the 9th inning of the World series?  He wouldn't of built blown out bunkers that fall apart after 3 inch down poor.  I soon stopped watching baseball after real men like Pete hung it up.  Maybe some Midwestern bias. 

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2017, 12:43:58 PM »
Doak has the most iconic haircut in GCA. Boyish was it?

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2017, 01:10:17 PM »
When I think of Pete Rose I think of the baseball player, not the manager that had to babysit adults. 


Pete was clutch. Who wouldn't want Pete batting in the 9th inning of the World series?  He wouldn't of built blown out bunkers that fall apart after 3 inch down poor.  I soon stopped watching baseball after real men like Pete hung it up.  Maybe some Midwestern bias.


When I think of Pete Rose I think of the baseball player, not the manager that had to babysit adults person who consistently claimed for 25+ years that he never bet on baseball; finally admitted to doing so as a manager; but continues to claim he didn't ever bet as a player or ever bet against the Reds. 

Matt Bielawa

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2017, 01:25:40 PM »
I soon stopped watching baseball after real men like Pete hung it up.  Maybe some Midwestern bias.

Just to be difficult....

So you stopped watching baseball when you were what, 6?  You must have been awfully mature to take that philosophical stance at that stage in your life.

BCowan

Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2017, 01:29:59 PM »
I soon stopped watching baseball after real men like Pete hung it up.  Maybe some Midwestern bias.

Just to be difficult....

So you stopped watching baseball when you were what, 6?  You must have been awfully mature to take that philosophical stance at that stage in your life.


Key word was soon.  When Kirk Gibson retired, I made it official.  I was raised on Tigers baseball.  I started young, was ahead of my time. 

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2017, 01:41:52 PM »
maybe Desmond Muirhead fit this description.


Didn't he have holes that looked life mermaids or fish?
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2017, 01:43:14 PM »
Whats not to like?


« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 01:46:43 PM by Kalen Braley »

AStaples

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2017, 01:49:03 PM »
Maybe a better subject/title would have been is there a modern day Dick Wilson?  But that I'm sure is for another chat room.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2017, 02:03:51 PM »
Andy,

I never saw Dick Wilson in that light.  Actually I think RTJ was so intimidated by him that he went to lengths to make him out as a much different person than he actually was.  He used to hang out in S Florida at a few of the courses there and some of the people who knew him never described him the way he was portrayed in the Sports Illustrated article.  I also, think he was a much more talented designer that RTJ but maybe not the salesman. 

Ben informed me yesterday in another thread I was "Pete Rose"...hmmmmm...I don't know how to take that. 

I'm not sure of the exact type archie trying to be described with this term but as for big names that don't get the big stuff etc  I would think Gary Player was the guy.  I don't know all of the politics involved etc but find a few things interesting such as ANGC never making him a member while JN and AP were.  I've heard of other instances but again I don't know fact from fiction there...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2017, 02:26:01 PM »
Welcome, Andy.
I think that, despite modern-day social media and the (supposed) ease of marketing and self promotion, the 'regional architect' has never been as marginalized as he is today. The mainstream media and the most ambitious developers and the emergence of the retail-golfer-model have worked together to dramatically narrow the field for top-flight assignments. I may be totally wrong, but it seems to me that, 80 years ago, someone like Perry Maxwell could've been described as a 'regional architect' - and yet this did not limit him either geographically or professionally. In other words, today's regional architects have as much chance of getting into the Hall of Fame as Pete Rose does - even though the HoF already includes a motley collection of rogues, drunks, racists and cheats.
Peter
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 02:39:47 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2017, 03:13:13 PM »
Andy:


As you well know, golf course architecture is a niche business.  There are certain guys considered good candidates for certain kinds of jobs.  Some get called about "tournament venue" work, others "high-end development" work, and others get "resort" or "minimalist" or "massive earthmoving" work.


At any given time, there are only a handful of architects considered suitable to consult at certain courses [tournament venues, or those of famous past designers], or to work for the PGA Tour on the venues they control.  There are lots of TPC courses, but they weren't built by a lot of different designers.


Last week I got a call to be on the short list as consultant for a well-known major championship host.  They are interviewing four candidates, and you could probably easily name the four.  And I doubt we all have an even shot at it; they're going to make their choice depending in part on whether they think the PGA or USGA would approve, because ultimately that's who they are trying to impress.


There are lots of "clubs" even smaller than the ASGCA, and they're the kind you can't ask to join.

BCowan

Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2017, 03:36:53 PM »

There are lots of "clubs" even smaller than the ASGCA, and they're the kind you can't ask to join.


Huron Mountain club

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2017, 03:37:14 PM »

When I think of Pete Rose I think of the baseball player, not the manager that had to babysit adults. 


Pete was clutch. Who wouldn't want Pete batting in the 9th inning of the World series?  He wouldn't of built blown out bunkers that fall apart after 3 inch down poor.  I soon stopped watching baseball after real men like Pete hung it up.  Maybe some Midwestern bias.



When I think of Pete Rose I think of the baseball player, not the manager that had to babysit adults person who consistently claimed for 25+ years that he never bet on baseball; finally admitted to doing so as a manager; but continues to claim he didn't ever bet as a player or ever bet against the Reds. 

BCowan

Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2017, 03:43:57 PM »

When I think of Pete Rose I think of the baseball player, not the manager that had to babysit adults. 


Pete was clutch. Who wouldn't want Pete batting in the 9th inning of the World series?  He wouldn't of built blown out bunkers that fall apart after 3 inch down poor.  I soon stopped watching baseball after real men like Pete hung it up.  Maybe some Midwestern bias.



When I think of Pete Rose I think of the baseball player, not the manager that had to babysit adults person who consistently claimed for 25+ years that he never bet on baseball; finally admitted to doing so as a manager; but continues to claim he didn't ever bet as a player or ever bet against the Reds. 


Everyone has their vices.  Atleast he didn't take steroids and then play the victim.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2017, 04:26:26 PM »
Strong in the ways of the force, this thread.
Coming in 2024
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~Maybe some more!!

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2017, 04:42:58 PM »
Art Hills is, by all accounts, an excellent human being. But he's probably the Pete Rose of architecture in terms of being a little more popular in and around Cincinnati than his body of work really justifies.


Donald Ross would appear to be the Hits King of golf course architecture. Nobody has ever been so reliable at doing the job well over and over and over again.


Who's the most likely architect to show up in the ring at a WWE event?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2017, 04:55:31 PM »

Who's the most likely architect to show up in the ring at a WWE event?


Isn't Nuzzo a black belt?

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2017, 04:56:42 PM »
Who's the most likely architect to show up in the ring at a WWE event?


Obviously the answer is Old Tom.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2017, 05:27:08 PM »
Art Hills is, by all accounts, an excellent human being. But he's probably the Pete Rose of architecture in terms of being a little more popular in and around Cincinnati than his body of work really justifies.


Donald Ross would appear to be the Hits King of golf course architecture. Nobody has ever been so reliable at doing the job well over and over and over again.



Jason,


Interesting thoughts.  Would you elevate him over Dr. MacK?  Sure Ross had far more courses, but did he have as many double platinum hits? 


Wasn't Ross more of a steady eddie in the better than most category?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 05:32:16 PM by Kalen Braley »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2017, 07:31:30 PM »
Kalen:


It's the Pete Rose of architecture we're talking about, not the Babe Ruth.  Rose was more of a steady presence, racking up singles and doubles and getting on base [and pestering the opposition].  I would equate "double platinum hits" with a slugger in baseball.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2017, 08:31:51 PM »
He wouldn't of built blown out bunkers that fall apart after 3 inch down poor.


Some call this a problem; others call it opportunity.


Pete's Grammar is likely better, too.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

BCowan

Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2017, 09:34:13 PM »
Some call this a problem; others call it opportunity.

Haha, that's great

Pete's Grammar is likely better, too

Pete isn't keeping score.  Just trying to emulate the great Ran with substance over technicalities. 

« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 10:01:43 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

AStaples

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2017, 08:30:36 AM »
Mike, interesting take on DW. I wish there were more documented about his industry reputation, other than his personal problems. But he sure was the consummate work horse knocking out singles and doubles over a short period of time. I'm not too sure he didn't have a larger impact than RTJ on moving design towards the aerial game. For that he should be banned!


Peter, I agree, the description of regional architect concept sure ha changed. It's a very competitive biz, even for the smallest of jobs. Many more design build/ in house processes have had a major impact on guys making a living in the traditional Gca sense. But, it is still the proving grounds to even have a chance to get asked to a seat at the table of a national job. Without churning out the singles and double at your local munis, you don't have much to talk about when you get that seat. I also find it has less and less about your experience, and more about relationships and perception.


Tom, I find the entire industry to be something you can't ask to join. It's one of the greatest mysteries of any business- how does one "make it" and another not. Given how many of us love the game, and want to improve it by building great work, what exactly are the reasons some get the jobs and others don't?? I've given up trying to figure that out. I just think it's an example of rub of the green, or golfs version of predestination. As someone once said, the harder I practice the luckier I get.