[Niall C]

The Scottish Open is sponsored by Aberdeen Asset Management, and Martin Gilbert was interviewed presumably yesterday and responded to questions as to whether the Scottish Open would ever go to Balmedie. Gilbert knows Trump and attended his inauguration. Despite this he suggested that they wouldn't go there despite being keen to have it go back to the North East. Apparently the inevitable protests that would result make Balmedie a non-starter.

Gilbert did say however that the tour had looked at Cruden Bay and that a composite course in the fashion of Gullane, would be considered. For those that know the St Olaf course, how would that likely work out ?

Niall

[Michael Tamburrini]

I'm not sure.


At a guess, 18 would play from around the second tee off St Olaf.  They could also switch the order so it plays as the opening hole (17 has more room around the green for grandstands).


I doubt 11 would be used so it'd be replaced by either the 19th (which would need tidied up considerably) or possibly 6 on St Olaf.  The 19th would make more sense though.


I don't see why anything else major would get changed.  Maybe a new tee on the fourth.  It could be moved left of the river, which would give lots of spectator room around the third.  The eighth might need a new back tee. 


It depends on how scared the powers that be are on the supposedly* blind shots on the back 9. 




*Given that you've already seen the 13th, 14th and 15th from above, I don't consider them completely blind.  Actually it's a neat test to see who has been paying attention earlier.

[Niall C]

Michael

I was thinking the need for the composite routing was to avoid going through the gap in order to allow better spectator movement but in thinking about that that would potentially take as many as 8 or 9 holes out of play including the newly tweaked Hawklaw. BTW, what's the 19th you refer to, is that Frank's par 3 after the 12th ?

Niall

[Michael Tamburrini]

Yeah, I was meaning Frank's par 3.  And you're right - if they take the far away part of the course out you'd lose from 9-15.   St Olaf couldn't replace that many.

[Thomas Dai]

Without earth moving a routing could be - 1 and 2 from the Main followed by 8-6-7 on the St Olaf followed by 3-4-5-6 on the Main followed by 2-3-4-1 on the St O and then a new tee for Main 7 and would give 14 holes out in the open visible area. Add on 8-16-17-18 from the Main and you get an 18-hole routing. This would include 6-7-8 from the St O which for mortals are possibly the best holes of all the 28 available until recently at CB. Perhaps tented village on the practice ground between StO 6-8? This would give 18-holes but length and par might be on the light side.

Shame to not use the new 9th and the spectator viewing possibilities along the left of the ridge so you could revise then above, but still include the wonderful 6-7-8 from the St and instead by including Main 9, 10 tee to 12 green as a par-3, then new longer tee on 14 finishing Main 15-16-17-18.

Might need care at the bottleneck left of Main 14, say use a stop/go or one way spectator system along the left of 14 and across 15 or even install (£ though) a temporary walkway along the beach right of 14 (tide permitting!!).

Lots of possibilities - and some potential excellent spectator viewing spots - but overall yardage and par might suffer with a composite course.


The Northern Open, a Scottish Tour event, has been held numerous times at CB on the Main not a composite course, televised in part as well. The thought of 'doing something' perminent or even semi-perminent with the StO though, along the lines of recent tweaking of the Valley at Portrush, fills me as a huge StO fan with dread, but then again I'm only an ex-CB member these days, not a current one.

Atb

[Niall C]

Thinking about it some more, I suspect the holes lost on the main course would be the 1st and 2nd and possibly the 18th, on the basis that they would want to allow access on to the course and room for the hospitality tents.

Niall

[Michael Whitaker]

I have a friend who is "in the know" at Cruden Bay. He said the European Tour guys were at the course a couple of months ago and were given a 'warts and all' tour.

The ET guys said that every course they visit has issues and were not concerned at all about parking, transport, accommodation etc.

Apparently, Martin Gilbert, The CEO of Aberdeen Asset Management, is keen for the event to come to Cruden Bay.

As for the composite course, they think it is likely to be 3 & 4 on main course replaced by 8 & 9 from St Olaf: strong par 4 and nice little par 3. Other possibilities are still in discussion... very fluid at the moment. 3 (off the tiger tee) and 4 on the main course would be disappointing to lose, but they think it would be very difficult getting any size crowd round them.

[Howard Riefs]

Shackelford on this topic...


http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2017/7/14/gilbert-rules-out-trump-aberdeen-for-scottish-open-kicks-ope.html

[Thomas Dai]

As for the composite course, they think it is likely to be 3 & 4 on main course replaced by 8 & 9 from St Olaf: strong par 4 and nice little par 3.

9 on the St Olaf?


St-O 8 & 6 (fab par-4) would work and route quite reasonably back to the 5th tee on the Main course. But St-O 9 plays in the opposite direction!


Perhaps the person 'in the know' could throw some more light on things!


atb

[Michael Whitaker]

Dai - here is my friend's reply to your question:

There's quite a few options available and, like I said, it's fluid. Ideally we'd want 3&4 on the main course to be in play. If we used the 6th on St Olaf this takes us nicely up to the 3rd Tiger tee, which makes it a really good hole. The 6th on The St Olaf is a good hole but it's blind, so not really ideal given the amount of other blind holes we have, but is an option. The only thing that's certain (or fairly certain) at the moment is that 11 and 15 on the Championship Course won't be used.We also have the hole at the far end which could be brought in if required.Great to have options and if we can get them playing 3&4 that would really showcase the course, as well as providing a better route to the 5th tee than walking against play to get there from St Olaf 6.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks Mike.
6 on St-O is a fab hole, blind or not, with a super wee green. Not sure it'd be blind for the guys we see on TV.....might need a spotter on the ridge though! And if a really wee par-3 is needed they don't come much better than the 7th on the St-O - and the hole links okay to the 5th tee on the Main.

Not planning to use the 15th on the Main!.....that's boring!
As your friend says, so many options available.
Be wonderful to see the SO played at CB.
atb

[Ulrich Mayring]

Please not! This course is perfect the way it is and it doesn't need any "slight modifications" such as "not playing the blind 14th and 15th".

Take the Scottish Open back to Loch Lomond, thank you very much. Can't we hackers have one course to ourselves?? Does the Tour have to intrude everywhere?

Ulrich

[Ally Mcintosh]

Have to admit that Cruden Bay seems a daft choice for the Scottish Open.


A rota of 5 or 6 links courses (mainly moderns with a couple of old non-Open courses like Gullane and Royal Aberdeen) seems to fit best.

[Niall C]

Ally,
 
In a sense I agree with you in that its location is a bit remote relative to the other big courses plus it doesn’t really have great public transport links. I spent a bit of time on google earth trying to work out how they would get people on and off the course, where they would park etc and it’s not exactly a no-brainer. In that respect I can understand why they are maybe taking 3 and 4 out of the equation to perhaps use for hospitality and access.


The first 7 or 8 holes are easily the best stretch and if they are going to muck about with that then will what they have left be strong enough ? Bear in mind that the St Olaf course was originally incorporated into the main course back when it was built in the early 1920’s and they soon changed it back to what it was before.


That said, we often decry title sponsors taking championships to non-descript courses to suit their purposes so in this case I think we should congratulate Martin Gilbert for encouraging the use of CB, even if it’s a modified version. I also like the idea of not restricting the rota and being different to the Open. The Scottish Open could be a great showcase for courses that don’t get the attention they deserve.
 
Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

True Niall,


It is nice to see The Irish Open moving around a few courses such as Portstewart and Ballyliffin.


Just as long as they don't kill the courses.


Ally

[Niall C]

I wonder if the club got MacKenzie Ebert in on the basis that they knew they were in with a shout for Scottish Open ? Have they now become the de facto go to gca’s for the tour as well as the R&A or is the European Tour more hands off in that respect than the R&A ?
 
Either way, there are a number of great links courses round the country that could do the Scottish Open justice even if they don’t bring in huge numbers. Further up north you have Fraserburgh, Nairn, Moray and presumably Peterhead although I haven’t played it. And if you are going that far north why not Dornoch ?
 
You might not get the numbers through the turnstiles but in terms of brand association and the likely TV audience it would gather, you could hardly do better. Hang on, weren’t MacKenzie Ebert doing work at RDGC not so long ago ?
 
Niall

[Thomas Dai]

There have been televised events from the likes of Nairn (Walker/Curtis Cups) and Montrose (Challenge/Euro-Pro) and even Spey Valley (Challenge/Euro-Pro) before although the crowds weren't/aren't significant.
CB has the potential to be epic on TV. Some potentially spectacular camera and spectator viewing spots.
Go for it....and have the guts to use 14-15 on the Main.....but please don't bugger up the St-O with modifications in the process.
atb

[Niall C]

Dai


I've got to think a Scottish Open, with its prize money, would get a lot lot more TV viewers than a Challenge tour event at the same venue. You wouldn't get Rickie and Phil pitching of for those for a start.


Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Not quite what I was getting at Niall. If TV has been to the other venues, some lessor, I mentioned then why not CB?
atb

[Niall C]

Please not! This course is perfect the way it is and it doesn't need any "slight modifications" such as "not playing the blind 14th and 15th".

Take the Scottish Open back to Loch Lomond, thank you very much. Can't we hackers have one course to ourselves?? Does the Tour have to intrude everywhere?

Ulrich

Ulrich,
 
Like I did with Ally’s comments, I agree with yours to a certain extent. Part of me also says keep the Scottish Open at Loch Lomond and leave all the terrific links courses round Scotland relatively unknown to the visiting overseas golfer. Why let others find out how good they are and turn them into expensive tourist traps beyond my reach. That’s just me being selfish.
 
Where I disagree is with the general sentiment that we shouldn’t touch these classic courses. Are we really saying that they can’t be improved ? When you consider that many have been altered, often quite radically, up to the present day (that includes Cruden Bay) when was it they attained the state of perfection ?
 
I note that Tom D and Renaissance are consulting at several classic courses down south. Are we suggesting that there work will diminish the courses or is it OK for Doak but nobody else is allowed to touch them ?


I think we should have more faith in modern architects. For instance I haven’t yet played the “new” Ailsa and Kintyre courses at Turnberry but have heard nothing but wonderful things about them and how they are much improved. That wouldn’t have happened if the owner had adopted your approach.
 
Niall 

[Ulrich Mayring]

Niall,

you're touching the course every day, when you mow it, so I would allow for that

What I'm talking about is that classic courses shouldn't be modified to cater to the professional game. This invariably involves lengthening, making room for tents and dumbing down the crazy parts. And all this for a once-in-ten-years event.

When I'm saying "don't you dare touch Cruden Bay", I'm talking to the European Tour. And indirectly to the members, who make the decision to let the Tour "bring it up to modern standards" or not.

Ulrich

[Niall C]

Ulrich,


Not only do you touch the course when you mow it but you also influence the effectiveness of the design depending on the mowing lines (just ask Tom D what he thinks of the set up at Renaissance).


Then there is the rebuilding of bunkers every 5 or so years in the case of a lot of links. Subtle changes, either intentional or unintentional, when rebuilding the bunker can make a big difference in the severity of the bunker in terms of the steepness of face of the bunker; its size; its depth and also the scope of ground that gathers into the bunker.


All that happens in the normal course of events and is ongoing but you also have more substantial periodic changes such as those that recently happened at CB. Were they done with one eye on the Scottish Open coming to CB ?.... well, possibly. However, were they purely for the benefit of the pro’s or were they intended and do they make the course better for everyone ? You could very well ask Frank Pont that question in relation to the changes on  the 9th at CB as he previously proposed something similar to what MacKenzie Ebert put in place, and that was well before the Scottish Open we ever muted for CB.


Often professional events can be the catalyst for change, as they often have been, but equally the benefits can be there for everyone. Why not embrace the opportunity when it comes around ? That’s one thing I find strange or at least contradictory about this discussion group. As a whole we are often very conservative while championing modern architects. Correction – some modern architects !
 
Niall

[Ulrich Mayring]

I find it hard to believe that changes done at Cruden Bay to make it "Tour ready" are going to benefit regular players.

Lengthening the course? It's long enough for me!
New back tees? Ain't gonna use 'em.
More relevant bunkers? I hardly reach the existing ones.
Plowing over two fairways to make room for tents? We don't need tents in regular play, but two fairways in good condition would be nice!

Ulrich

[Niall C]

Ulrich
 
I think you have maybe misunderstood what is being proposed or discussed. As far as I know no one is talking about losing any holes. All that is being discussed is taking some of the regular holes out of the course, purely for the term of the competition, and replacing them with holes from the St Olaf course, all with the intention of creating some elbow room for access/tents etc. Once the competition is over both courses would revert back to their existing routing.
 
Niall

[Ulrich Mayring]

Niall,

No final decision has been made with respect to changes. So, knowing the European Tour, I will expect the worst.

But regardless of what is currently discussed or not, I find it highly unlikely that any changes that come about in the course of hosting a Tour event will benefit average players. If you can think of something that will add enjoyment for regular players, but also help attracting the Tour, then by all means come out with it. All I can think of - based on past experiences - is detrimental to the recreational game.

Ulrich

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