Your Goofy Design Ideas

[Jason Topp]

In college I sometimes played a Phoenix area course that had a short par 4 where the ideal line off the tee for me was directly over a house.  It was a terrible design from a safety standpoint but the potential disaster associated with such a tee shot made the hole the most memorable on an otherwise forgettable course. 

I don't advocate such a design but often think about ways holes could be built that create an unusual thrill that might offend the first time one plays the hole but are greatly enjoyed over time.  For whatever reason, I have always been attracted to an opening tee shot that plays over a rustic clubhouse.  I am not sure how to safely create such a shot but think it would provide an unconventional thrill to the player as well as plenty of entertainment to spectators. 

What are your goofy design ideas?

[Bill Raffo]

I've always wondered what would happen if a wealthy person handed over a large piece of flat property to an architect and stipulated something like:


1. I want you to use large scale 3d printing to create structures upon which the earth will be moved over on top of, after they are designed, built and put in place....hole by hole.


2. I want the elevation changes, with lots of twisting, turning, up and down holes.


3. I want the course to be super fun, think bankings that if hit, will shoot the ball down long speed slots and caroms near the green that can be used to propel the ball off of and on to a green.


4. Elements of "funny golf" but with quirk and not just outright silliness.




It's a course I would love reading about in terms of the design and technical process...what kind of materials were used for the underground skeleton etc..and one I'd love to then go and play.


Maybe it would be easier to just move the dirt where you wanted it but the idea that an entire skeleton is below your feet, at all times, would be pretty cool.  I'm all for minimalism, btw but in the collective variation of course design, seems there would be room for one of these.

[George Pazin]

This was mine, many moons ago. Basically, after hearing the old line about Prairie Dunes - "There were 118 holes out there, I just needed to eliminate 100" - I came up with this:





Why eliminate the 100? Why not just offer tons of different options every day?

[Tim Gavrich]

I'd love to see a course that contains the strategic elements we laud from the minimalist, but with consciously and obviously non-naturalistic shaping. Terraces/steps, abrupt conical mounding, some whimsy. Part of the challenge of playing the course would be ignoring the visually jarring stuff.


The closest course I've ever seen in person to what I'm talking about is Jim Engh's Creek Club at Reynolds. That one in China with the giant noodle bowl sculpture is kind of on that track, too.


I wouldn't want it to become even remotely the norm, but I think there's room for a course like this out there, somewhere.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I really like short par 3s with very small greens.  Problem is they get absolutely destroyed with foot traffic, ballmarks, compaction, etc, and will generally be the worst performing greens on the course.  So my idea is to have a short par 3 complex where there are two greens where play is alternated daily or weekly between the two small greens.  The question then becomes do you have one tee complex that serves both greens where the greens are 90* or so from the teeing ground?  How would the hole be arranged?  Are there any examples currently?

[Tom_Doak]

So my idea is to have a short par 3 complex where there are two greens where play is alternated daily or weekly between the two small greens.  The question then becomes do you have one tee complex that serves both greens where the greens are 90* or so from the teeing ground?  How would the hole be arranged?  Are there any examples currently?

Tom Fazio has built at least a dozen courses with a short par-4 of this description -- two alternate small greens -- an idea he presumably borrowed after building an alternate green for the 8th at Pine Valley, because of the traffic problems you describe.  However I have yet to see it done for a par-3 hole. 


Robert Trent Jones did experiment with building parallel, alternate par-3 holes to speed up play, on one or two courses back in the day, I believe.

[Tom_Doak]

I've had lots of goofy ideas and have only built a couple of them so far.  The key is to wait for just the right situation where it's not so goofy.


Recently, when looking at a very hilly site, I wondered about the possibility of building a very long downhill hole where the landing area was 10% or a bit more for a long stretch ... kind of a "speed slot" for everybody who hit the fairway, but being in the rough would cost you all the extra roll.  I guess you could say #10 at Augusta is sort of like that, but only for a little bit.  Anyway, I found a way around it on the project I was looking at, but I wonder if I did build it how that would go over?

[Tom_Doak]

Maybe it would be easier to just move the dirt where you wanted it but the idea that an entire skeleton is below your feet, at all times, would be pretty cool.  I'm all for minimalism, btw but in the collective variation of course design, seems there would be room for one of these.

Dirt is very heavy, so I can't see how a "skeleton" would stave off collapse.  If it was strong enough I'd guess it would cost much more than just moving enough earth [or bringing in enough fill] to get the shapes you want.

[James Brown]

Two courses in northern Virginia come to mind every time we talk about weird or extreme holes:  Meadow Farms and Rock Harbor. 


Rock Harbor has a couple of really weird holes that I kinda like, like a straight down hill par five with broken ground short of the green and several holes with really canted fairways.  Mostly conventional greens, which make them playable.


Meadow Farms has baseball diamonds, a par 6, and lots and lots of weird bunkers. 


Both holes have loyal followings, but I have parked very close to the club house every time I've been there...



 

[Wade Whitehead]

So my idea is to have a short par 3 complex where there are two greens where play is alternated daily or weekly between the two small greens.  The question then becomes do you have one tee complex that serves both greens where the greens are 90* or so from the teeing ground?  How would the hole be arranged?  Are there any examples currently?

Tom Fazio has built at least a dozen courses with a short par-4 of this description -- two alternate small greens -- an idea he presumably borrowed after building an alternate green for the 8th at Pine Valley, because of the traffic problems you describe.  However I have yet to see it done for a par-3 hole. 


Robert Trent Jones did experiment with building parallel, alternate par-3 holes to speed up play, on one or two courses back in the day, I believe.

Pete Dye originally built the third hole at Kingsmill River with two greens, didn't he?

WW

[Tom_Doak]

Pete Dye originally built the third hole at Kingsmill River with two greens, didn't he?

I've never been to Kingsmill, so I don't know the answer to that one.  But are the two greens very small?  There are a bunch of golf holes around the world with alternate greens [even the 9th at Pacific Dunes!], but the Fazio ones are the only ones I know that did it for the express purpose of having a tiny green.

[Matthew Petersen]

Pete Dye originally built the third hole at Kingsmill River with two greens, didn't he?

I've never been to Kingsmill, so I don't know the answer to that one.  But are the two greens very small?  There are a bunch of golf holes around the world with alternate greens [even the 9th at Pacific Dunes!], but the Fazio ones are the only ones I know that did it for the express purpose of having a tiny green.

I was under the impression that was the purpose of the two greens on Fazio's Pelican Hill course. The south course, I think? And not sure of the hole number. The course has consecutive par 3s near, but not on, the coast. The second of those is a short hole with two small greens.

[Matthew Rose]

How about Desmond Muirhead and the green-eating bunker jaws?

[Kyle Harris]

A perfectly flat and level green.
A perfectly flat, but not level, green.

[Tom_Doak]

I was under the impression that was the purpose of the two greens on Fazio's Pelican Hill course. The south course, I think? And not sure of the hole number. The course has consecutive par 3s near, but not on, the coast. The second of those is a short hole with two small greens.

Matthew:  You're correct.  I forgot that hole!  It's been a long time.  And when I think of "California," Pelican Hill doesn't come up on the first page of my internal search results.

[Wade Whitehead]

Pete Dye originally built the third hole at Kingsmill River with two greens, didn't he?

I've never been to Kingsmill, so I don't know the answer to that one.  But are the two greens very small?  There are a bunch of golf holes around the world with alternate greens [even the 9th at Pacific Dunes!], but the Fazio ones are the only ones I know that did it for the express purpose of having a tiny green.

Tom:

When I was at William & Mary in the early 90s, there were two greens there (a lower one, which was reachable in two, and one on a small hill, which required a layup).  The greens played at the same distance, but required different strategies.  I always thought that was kind of cool.

WW

[Jason Topp]

A space saving idea:  1 tee box, two holes.


You tee off from the same spot, first to a par 3 located at the side of the fairway and 2nd to a par 4 or 5.  You play out the par 3 and then walk to your tee shot on the next hole. 


I know there are a few holes that use a similar approach, although I think they generally have two tees. 

[BCrosby]

Nicklaus built two small greens at the 12th (?) hole at The Country Club of the South, a short par 3. They are separated by a creek, as I recall.


Rees Jones's par 3 17th (?) at Haig Point has alternate greens. But both are big.


Bob

[Pat Burke]

A space saving idea:  1 tee box, two holes.


You tee off from the same spot, first to a par 3 located at the side of the fairway and 2nd to a par 4 or 5.  You play out the par 3 and then walk to your tee shot on the next hole. 


I know there are a few holes that use a similar approach, although I think they generally have two tees.

I played Euro Senior tour qualifying a few years back in the Algarve Portugal.  I believe it was the Pinta course.  The third hole was a pretty severe drop shot par three.  The fourth tee we had to walk right back up the steep hill to tee off on #4 which was a very downhill par five.  In the practice rounds, some guys would hit there shot on number three, and then hit a driver down number four before going down the hill to putt,eliminating the climb back up the hill


The tees were right next to each other

[Tom_Doak]

A space saving idea:  1 tee box, two holes.


You tee off from the same spot, first to a par 3 located at the side of the fairway and 2nd to a par 4 or 5.  You play out the par 3 and then walk to your tee shot on the next hole. 

When I was working for Mr. Dye, he "considered" that idea for the 16th and 17th holes on the old TPC of Connecticut [the original routing].  It just seemed like the best spot for the tee on both holes was in the same place, and he mentioned an old course in Indiana that had worked like that.  [Unfortunately, I don't remember the name.]  But you can't really play according to the Rules with two balls in play at one time ... and in Indiana, they'd had some trouble with the group in front making off with an extra ball here and there. 


Instead, the 17th tee shot was built to cross over the line of the 16th, and they played it that way for 3-4 years until the course was renovated.

[Thomas Dai]

Reversible par-3 course - 'normal' golf in one direction, footgolf in the other.
The 'holes' for the footgolf to be at the rear of the the tees for the 'normal' golf. The 'tees' for the footgolf to be adjacent to, but not on, the putting surfaces of the 'normal' golf course.
Atb

[Mike_Trenham]

I would redesign cart fees to $100 less your age.

[John McCarthy]

I have thought about a hole where the average hacker has a better chance at a good score than a precise ball striker.  It would have to be a shortish par 4, heavily downhill with a big dogleg right.  Most people slice so for the poorly hit shots to the right kick into the fairway, and gravity would feed it down to a series of moguls, pachinko like where you could be fed into deep rough or by pure luck get on the green.  A stout and accurate drive will put you in jail...this part I have not worked out. 


This violates most tenets of good golf course design. 

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I would redesign cart fees to $100 less your age.

Positively brilliant.  Maybe 80-age though?  I'm not charging an octogenarian 20 bucks for a cart, it's on me.

[Bill Raffo]

Maybe it would be easier to just move the dirt where you wanted it but the idea that an entire skeleton is below your feet, at all times, would be pretty cool.  I'm all for minimalism, btw but in the collective variation of course design, seems there would be room for one of these.

Dirt is very heavy, so I can't see how a "skeleton" would stave off collapse.  If it was strong enough I'd guess it would cost much more than just moving enough earth [or bringing in enough fill] to get the shapes you want.

No idea what the cost would be of layering some sort of hard plastic into structures that not even dirt would collapse....but I guess it does't really matter how you get there.


The course would be called, "The Roller Coaster."  Premium would be placed on the bounding ball, left to right, right to left, banked speed slots and being left out if you missed them. 


Just to get the traditionalists really angry, there would be one hole with two greens, a 90 degree dog leg with the landing area being a plateau.  The first green would sit in the middle of the plateau, be a punch bowl and have a garbage can sized mouth in the center.  You would aim for it off the tee. If you execute the shot and the ball goes in the big hole, it would be piped down, under the ground and release on the second green for an eagle attempt.  Players missing would have the choice of trying to pitch into it or just play for the green, traditionally.


You would need a lot of height on such a course, so perhaps you have elevators that take the carts up to platform tee boxes so you could see much of the bounding.  The course would be pretty easy...many of the bad shots would be "saved" by banks and such.


Would actually be quite funny and an ironic if you, Mr. D, were to build a totally zany, manufactured, fun, course..."The minimalist goes off the rails...." I see it in Vegas, under lights...