New essay on Tom Doak

[Tom_Doak]

He realized early on (and in fact might've been the first ever gca to realize) that the majority of those who'd play & love his golf courses were better golfers than his mother -- but not by very much! 

I was no better than second there.  MacKenzie was definitely first.

[Peter Pallotta]

I think I'd have to disagree there, Tom. Dr Mac *seems* to have been the first because we're playing his 1920s golf courses with 2020 clubs and balls. I don't think Dr Mac was nearly as concerned with dear old mum as you are! I think he had someone like Bernard Darwin in mind instead

[Niall C]

Peter

MacKenzie actually stated it. Can't recall a specific quote in its entirety but something about being able to putt all the way to the hole (talking about the 11th TOC I think) and providing a challenge for players of all abilities. This manifested itself in the relative absence of cross-hazards compared to what Simpson referred to as the dark ages. In other words the weaker player could still navigate round the hazards but not necessarily by taking the direct route to the green.

That style became prevalent in the golden age even if the other architects didn't articulate it in articles and books the same way MacKenzie did. In that respect Tom is harking back to that style as others have done.

Niall

[BCrosby]

Niall -


The "you can play the hole with a putter" thing goes back as far as John Low. Low thought that was a reason why the Eden hole was so good, for example. Harold Hilton, J H Taylor and others took it as a defect of the hole.


How you came out on the issue was pretty good predictor of where you came out on the newer "strategic" design ideas being advanced by Low, Colt, Croome and others vs. defenders of older Victorian design ideas where forced carries over bunkers were seen as an important element of a well-designed hole.


Bob

[John Kavanaugh]

It's called the Alice Affect. Pete had Alice, Mac - Merion, Doak - His Mom. We can only speculate but I'd guess Brauer was inspired by an Aunt on his Dads side while Young still thinks of an Auburn cheerleader when he sharpens his pencil. It's just one of many marketing ploys that shows up as an afterthought at best.

[Mike_Young]

OK...I'm stepping into something I know little about but that hasn't stopped me before

Bob (our most eloquent and learned contributor as per JK), I don't know the real definition of minimalism or when it came about nor do I understand any of this "playing better than my mother " stuff etc etc.   But I see more to this thing.  Keep in mind, this opinion is formed  as someone who started in the business at the same time as TD  and had to endure all of the BS (even if on a regional level) that comes with competing with guys who think you should not be competing with them because they have not approved.   

Jim Hanson, in his book, A Difficult Par, on RTJ described a pivotal time in the 30's which was an effort to come out of the "Golden Age" and move forward as a profession instead of a craft.  RTJ was at the forefront of this and IMO took us into the so called Dark Ages.  Call it whatever you wish but TD was the first to give national attention to going back to designing and building in the manner of that time. Presently we have a mix of both. JMO

[BCowan]

It's called the Alice Affect. Pete had Alice, Mac - Merion, Doak - His Mom. We can only speculate but I'd guess Brauer was inspired by an Aunt on his Dads side while Young still thinks of an Auburn cheerleader when he sharpens his pencil. It's just one of many marketing ploys that shows up as an afterthought at best.

That's great. Brauer was clearly inspired by Tony Packos hot dogs

[John Kavanaugh]

Anyone who has ever played with Doak can verify. He is a world class lag putter that plays a low draw. Now is it a coincidence that his designs fit his own game? What's good for the Doak is good for the gander.

[Tom_Doak]

Anyone who has ever played with Doak can verify. He is a world class lag putter that plays a low draw. Now is it a coincidence that his designs fit his own game? What's good for the Doak is good for the gander.

You will find a lot of people who agree with your first point but disagree with the second.  I grew up with a fade, and never know from one month to the next whether that or a draw is what will show up on the first tee.  Which explains why my courses don't have narrow chutes off the tee, and are generally wider than those of most other designers [or, at least, before I started influencing them].


P.S.  I do not design my courses for my mom, first, but that doesn't make her [or other average golfers] an afterthought.  But your previous post vastly underestimates the role of Alice Dye as a sounding board for Pete.  As I've written here before, her influence as a reality check for Pete was important to his success ... and there are tons of other architects who could use someone like that to tell them when they're making things too difficult, or too easy I guess.  I use my memory of my mom's game to the same effect.  [She passed away in 1990 ... the only course  of mine she ever got to see was High Pointe.]

[John Kavanaugh]

Alice must have been a world class swimmer.

[Jim Bluck]

I am "that" superintendent.


I was enjoying reading the article, the manner in which the author would decribe in detail his findings of Tom. In an instance, the entire essay lost all its purity, honest and integrity with me. I was not fired.


As the superintendent for an owner living in Arkansas, I was given the responibilty of relaying to the owner any pertinent information or happenings on the project in his absence.  As with any situation where you bring confident, successful and opinionated individuals to a group, it's almost inevitable that there will be personalities that will draw you in or push you away. 


I looked at The Loop project as a game changer for Forest Dunes, my career and golf course architecture in general.  I never offered an opinion or asked a question just to get my way or to fulfill a self serving mission.  I have over 26 years of listening, watching, playing with and knowing what the greatest percentage of golfers enjoy and that has always been my motivator.....like I mentioned to one of Tom's shapers, " if you were building this course just for me, I would hand you the keys and call me when it's done"


To leave such an interesting project, a project that would allow me to maintain a golf course with the best playing surface on the planet (fescue), under firm and fast playing conditions all of which were personal career goals should speak volumes to those of you who know my business.  The overall idiocy of the previous 4 years had climaxed at a time an offer came my way in which there was no looking back. I gave my 2 week notice 3 weeks before seeding was to begin. 


To you Tom I say well done.  I was afforded the opportunity to play the clockwise routing this spring and I never once approached a green from the air......so so so much fun! 


Mike Croley, I envy your ability to express your thoughts so vividly in writing and I was truly enjoying your essay.  I would appreciate a published recant of the misinformation that you either fabricated, received from an unreliable source or embellished to help illustrate a personality trait of your subject. I have worked very hard in my career to establish a positive reputation and your written words are defametory in nature.

[Peter Pallotta]

Fine post, Jim. I don't know you or the situation, but yours was a measured and transparently honest statement/response.


Niall, Bob - I meant to suggest that the game is much more democratic now than it was in Dr Mac's time. Yes, perhaps you could play at Mac course with a putter, but it's hard to believe that the philosophy behind that was based on thoughts about how, say, working class beginners or women seniors or teenage boys might play his courses. Tom's ability to 'hide the hand of man' so that the genuine playability (for all) seems inherent in the very naturalism of the design strikes me as quite a new thing.

[Ryan Coles]

I am "that" superintendent.


I was enjoying reading the article, the manner in which the author would decribe in detail his findings of Tom. In an instance, the entire essay lost all its purity, honest and integrity with me. I was not fired.


As the superintendent for an owner living in Arkansas, I was given the responibilty of relaying to the owner any pertinent information or happenings on the project in his absence.  As with any situation where you bring confident, successful and opinionated individuals to a group, it's almost inevitable that there will be personalities that will draw you in or push you away. 


I looked at The Loop project as a game changer for Forest Dunes, my career and golf course architecture in general.  I never offered an opinion or asked a question just to get my way or to fulfill a self serving mission.  I have over 26 years of listening, watching, playing with and knowing what the greatest percentage of golfers enjoy and that has always been my motivator.....like I mentioned to one of Tom's shapers, " if you were building this course just for me, I would hand you the keys and call me when it's done"


To leave such an interesting project, a project that would allow me to maintain a golf course with the best playing surface on the planet (fescue), under firm and fast playing conditions all of which were personal career goals should speak volumes to those of you who know my business.  The overall idiocy of the previous 4 years had climaxed at a time an offer came my way in which there was no looking back. I gave my 2 week notice 3 weeks before seeding was to begin. 


To you Tom I say well done.  I was afforded the opportunity to play the clockwise routing this spring and I never once approached a green from the air......so so so much fun! 


Mike Croley, I envy your ability to express your thoughts so vividly in writing and I was truly enjoying your essay.  I would appreciate a published recant of the misinformation that you either fabricated, received from an unreliable source or embellished to help illustrate a personality trait of your subject. I have worked very hard in my career to establish a positive reputation and your written words are defametory in nature.

As I suspected.


Well said.

[John Kavanaugh]

With the new course going in at Arcadia Bluffs I'd say Jim came out on top. Not to mention that Dana Fry is the nicest guy in the business.

[Tom_Doak]

With the new course going in at Arcadia Bluffs I'd say Jim came out on top. Not to mention that Dana Fry is the nicest guy in the business.

Pretty much everyone but me is portrayed as "the nicest guy in the business."  As you say, it's one of many marketing ploys.  But it does allow me to stand out from the crowd 

[BCowan]

With the new course going in at Arcadia Bluffs I'd say Jim came out on top. Not to mention that Dana Fry is the nicest guy in the business.

Pretty much everyone but me is portrayed as "the nicest guy in the business."  As you say, it's one of many marketing ploys.  But it does allow me to stand out from the crowd 

Between the 2, I'd have to say Tom is much more humble and enjoyable to be around. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Marketing ploy #148 = "The best teeth in the business" 

[John Kavanaugh]

I've got to say that Doak gets the "Takes it as well as he gives it" award. And the boy can give it.

[Niall C]

Niall, Bob - I meant to suggest that the game is much more democratic now than it was in Dr Mac's time. Yes, perhaps you could play at Mac course with a putter, but it's hard to believe that the philosophy behind that was based on thoughts about how, say, working class beginners or women seniors or teenage boys might play his courses. Tom's ability to 'hide the hand of man' so that the genuine playability (for all) seems inherent in the very naturalism of the design strikes me as quite a new thing.

Peter


I’m not sure why you find it hard to believe. The essence of the move from the dark ages of Victorian architecture as Bob calls it with its cross hazards to a more strategic style was to allow for the different level of players be they beginners or experts; male or female; young or old; a way to play the course that suited their ability and their propensity for risk. In other words a weaker hitter, if they were totally risk averse, could zig zag their way round the bunkers and hazards with a putter albeit they would take more shots. The weaker player was often referred to as the “rabbit” while the stronger player was the “tiger” or “crack”.

I was perhaps wrong to suggest that architects other than MacKenzie didn’t deal with the topic in writing as others such as Low wrote about it (much earlier than MacKenzie) as Bob pointed out. I suspect Simpson also dealt with it as well from what I dimly recall of his writing. In a general sense it was much more of a topic of conversation in the press then than it is now. For instance Vardon was a great proponent of the cross hazard (as was JH Taylor) and wrote articles about whereas Braid, judging by his architecture, wasn’t although I can’t recall him writing anything about it one way or another.

All in all, MacKenzie wasn’t a lone voice as you seem to think.

Niall

[BCrosby]

Peter -


Niall gets it about right. The phrase "you can play the hole with a putter" was originally meant as a criticism of the design of a hole. Such holes were deemed to be problematical because a topped shot would go unpunished. The key notion being that outcomes should be 'deserved'. Holes that didn't 'properly' punish bad shots were thought to be badly designed.


Low, Colt and others flipped the significance of the phrase, arguing that, to the contrary, a hole you could play with a putter was the mark of a well-designed hole. These were early discussions of what we now call 'strategic' architecture.


The fight between the "Party of Equity" (Taylor, Hilton, Purves) and Tories (Low, Colt, Fowler, Croome, Simpson) was, at bottom, over profoundly different visions of the main function of hazards. 


Bob

[Jerry Kluger]

I can remember back in the 1970s and 1980s when I started playing that most people judged the quality of a course by how difficult it was and how much separation there was between holes, i.e. trees. It took quite a while for this to change thanks to more enlightened architects like Tom although I have plenty of older friends who still view courses with those qualities in mind. I tell them go ahead and kill yourself but I prefer to go and have fun at a Doak or other minimalist course. 

[Mike Hendren]

Anyone who has ever played with Doak can verify. He is a world class lag putter ...

I told him as much.  He explained that he paces off his long putts but I swear I never saw him do it.  Sneaky.

[Mike_Young]

Mike H,
Now that you are on this thread we have covered both ends of the spectrum here at GCA.... we have Bob Crosby, our most eloquent and learned contributor as per JK and then you chimed in....Diversity is a great thing....

[Mike Hendren]

Mike, that is so hurtful.  I think I'll check and see if I'm still banned from Tommy's site.

[Mike_Young]

Mike, that is so hurtful.  I think I'll check and see if I'm still banned from Tommy's site.

I think I was banned also...don't remember what happened...