State golf associations and promotion of out of state courses...

[Mike_Young]

I have always assumed the clubs of a state make up the state golf association and the members of each club are members of the state golf association via the clubs.  I also have always assumed the state golf association was there to support golf in that state and to aid those members in anyway they can.  Most associations will have a magazine and those magazines often are published by an outside publisher in exchange for ad revenues etc.     Here is an email blast form GSGA today  http://www.rtjgolf.com/summer/  promoting RTJ Trail in Alabama.  This is about 20 miles from my course.  Why should I support an organization whose is promoting golf in another state while charging me dues and taking business.  This is a case of an association working for revenues for itself before its members.  In Georgia they make go after "partners" in other states and promote them.  Myrtle Beach and Streamsong are examples.   I have no problem with guys going to play these golf courses and I enjoy most of the courses however it is not the place of the GSGA to help promote them over their own members.  If they are in stte and wish to buy ads then I have no issue with such.  Am I wrong??

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,


I would call/email and ask them that.  I suspect they are no different that most organizations in that they will take money from wherever they can get it.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,


I would call/email and ask them that.  I suspect they are no different that most organizations in that they will take money from wherever they can get it.

A few of us did that a while back.  I understand organizations taking money from where ever they can get it but imagine a magazine for ford dealers taking money for ads from chevy dealers....same thing here...

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,


I would call/email and ask them that.  I suspect they are no different that most organizations in that they will take money from wherever they can get it.

A few of us did that a while back.  I understand organizations taking money from where ever they can get it but imagine a magazine for ford dealers taking money for ads from chevy dealers....same thing here...

What was thier response?  I guess if they blew you off there is only one thing to do it return...

[Ed Brzezowski]

Maybe they honestly thought it was a benefit to some of the Associations members? I get the point but maybe, just maybe, it was not done with malice in mind?

Just wondering.

[Tim Gavrich]

Mike, how many rounds would you estimate that RTJ Trail ad drove out of the state?


Aren't the people likely to see that ad also likely to take at least one out-of-state golf trip per year, anyway?


Would you also discourage state golf associations without year-round seasons from promoting warm-weather destinations?

[David_Tepper]

I have been a member of the Northern California Golf Association for 30+ years. The NCGA publishes a magazine several times a year and frequently sends out "blast" emails.

The magazines have adverts for courses/resorts both inside and outside or Northern California. The emails promote offers similar in nature.

I consider these offers and adverts to be a service to the general NCGA membership and good for the general benefit of the game. The notion that this advertising/promotion some how harms the member clubs/courses of the association is, at best, curious.            

[Mike_Young]

Thanks for the comments.

This has been going on all over as several of you mention for a few years.  It all has to do with ad dollars for magazines.  But the associations have to decide who is their member.  It can't be the club and the individual.  Same for USGA.  If their member who actually pays the dues is the club then they should make efforts to better that club.  The individual will find here to play without the ads.  It's the classic example of where all these associations became an industry themselves. 

The basic are the state association is for golf clubs and courses in that state.  It should not muddy the water and promote golf outside of the state.  That's not to say they should be adversarial .  For example let's use chamber of commerce...one chamber of commerce promotes business in it's area whole being friends with other chambers.  They don't advertise in each others newsletters and magazines...

I realize some brush this off as petty but ask the owners of courses that support these associations while the association pushes the competition.  Of course board members may see it differently than an individual owner fighting for rounds that can get a better deal in another state 20 miles away because they saw an ad in a magazine that was paid for by the course they play.

[Mike_Young]

Mike, how many rounds would you estimate that RTJ Trail ad drove out of the state?

I don't know.


Aren't the people likely to see that ad also likely to take at least one out-of-state golf trip per year, anyway?

Some will...


Would you also discourage state golf associations without year-round seasons from promoting warm-weather destinations?

Let me ask it this way.  If the owners of the course who make up the state association were on the boards making the decision do you think they would be taking ads from competition at times they were open other than in state courses?   And promoting a course far enough away to require a flight or overnight travel is a different matter.    Also, in Georgia they have several of these large adjoining state places come on as partners.  That's BS and owners would not allow such.

[Kalen Braley]

Thanks for the comments.


I realize some brush this off as petty but ask the owners of courses that support these associations while the association pushes the competition.  Of course board members may see it differently than an individual owner fighting for rounds that can get a better deal in another state 20 miles away because they saw an ad in a magazine that was paid for by the course they play.

Mike,


I don't think this is petty at all...if anything I think its indicative of things going awry on an even bigger scale that seeps into everything...the pursuit of the dollar regardless of the cost to others and strange bed fellows.


I think you should show em your opinion with the only thing that counts...the wallet.

[Mike_Young]

Kalen,
I did...

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,
I did...

Atta boy Mike. 

[Ed Brzezowski]

Kalen,
I did...

YIKES

[Carl Nichols]

Mike:
I hear you, but isn't it in the interest of Georgia golfers (who I assume make up the majority of the GSGA membership) to (a) know about interesting golf offers in other states and (b) have the costs of GSGA defrayed by revenue from out-of-state courses? 

[Ed Brzezowski]

And maybe by accepting ads from out of state courses the Association can deliver a better product to in state golfers. A better publication, more and less expensive events, help with a junior program, help with the First Tee organizations in the state of Georgia. Possibly help to underwrite a golf program in the schools. Maybe this ad revenue helps to keep your costs reasonable? Helps to deliver a better product?  My guess is the total income from four full page ads a year might hit the 10k mark. Are you certain the association does not fund some helpful organizations?  You have any caddy scholarships down there? First tee? Blind golfers association? Organizations that help kids get some clubs and learn the game? Maybe the wounded warriors?  I doubt they are building a war chest just for the hell of it.

Vote with your wallet but engage the brain before you pop the clutch.

[Mike_Young]

Mike:
I hear you, but isn't it in the interest of Georgia golfers (who I assume make up the majority of the GSGA membership) to (a) know about interesting golf offers in other states and (b) have the costs of GSGA defrayed by revenue from out-of-state courses?

I look at GSGA as being made up of member clubs...the individul members of those clubs can find their own golf offers w/o some association competing with its members.   And the club is paying the GSGA not the individual.  JMO

[Mike_Young]

And maybe by accepting ads from out of state courses the Association can deliver a better product to in state golfers. A better publication, more and less expensive events, help with a junior program, help with the First Tee organizations in the state of Georgia. Possibly help to underwrite a golf program in the schools. Maybe this ad revenue helps to keep your costs reasonable? Helps to deliver a better product?  My guess is the total income from four full page ads a year might hit the 10k mark. Are you certain the association does not fund some helpful organizations?  You have any caddy scholarships down there? First tee? Blind golfers association? Organizations that help kids get some clubs and learn the game? Maybe the wounded warriors?  I doubt they are building a war chest just for the hell of it.

Vote with your wallet but engage the brain before you pop the clutch.

Ed,
Thanks.  I have evaluated all of it for a few years and golf associations do not go to the bottom line for individual owners.  Al of the thing syou mention are good and good for associations but they don't help the average course out there.  Most of that gets done with or without.  And when you really get into some of the First Tee type stuff and see how much the corporate end takes you realize that it's best to just worry about your little 15 mile radius....

[Kalen Braley]

Mike:
I hear you, but isn't it in the interest of Georgia golfers (who I assume make up the majority of the GSGA membership) to (a) know about interesting golf offers in other states and (b) have the costs of GSGA defrayed by revenue from out-of-state courses?

I look at GSGA as being made up of member clubs...the individul members of those clubs can find their own golf offers w/o some association competing with its members.   And the club is paying the GSGA not the individual.  JMO

Mike,


I agree with you whole-heartedly here.  Its time for accountability from the organizations who take our money.  Its no different than the grocery store trying to sell you spoiled milk or rotten produce.

[David_Tepper]

"For example let's use chamber of commerce...one chamber of commerce promotes business in it's area whole being friends with other chambers.  They don't advertise in each others newsletters and magazines..."

Mike -

I realize you have a material interest in the game that is far, far greater than almost all of the participants on this board.

Your analogy to the chamber of commerce is flawed. Golf associations are not "trade groups" comprised only of golf course owners/operators and member golf clubs. If they were, they would not offer memberships to individuals.

Are there Associate Clubs (clubs that are not affiliated with a golf course?) in the Georgia Golf Association? There are many such clubs in the NCGA. In Northern California it is not necessary to belong to a golf club or a golf course member club to establish a handicap, play in sanctioned tournaments, etc.

https://ncga.org/membership/associate-clubs/

Many year ago I was involved with a regional member association in another sport. I believe the primary purpose of such associations is to promote the interests of the individual members and the general well-being of their sport.

I realize you have a different perspective.

DT

 

     
 

[John Kavanaugh]

I read the entire magazine praying to find an ad for GolfNow. No luck, but I would love to rent a GolfBoard at the Nicklaus course on the Florida Panhandle.

[Mike_Young]

David,

I see where you come from and agree that my analogy of a chamber of commerce would be flawed if the GSGA allowed both individuals and clubs to be members.  They don't .  In Ga you can be a member of a club that is not affiliated with a golf course and become a member of the state association however an individual cannot just call the GSGA and become a member therefore I consider clubs, whether golf or off course clubs to be the member and the individuals are associated thru the clubs themselves.

I may be cynical on all of it but I have watched the various associations milk the industry for over 30 years now and I don't see the value.  If I saw the value I would buy in in a second.  Just think about it...we have a World Golf Association and we have magazines running around touting a few management company presidents as the "most important people in golf".  World Golf Association???  Just tell me for a minute what that does for a golf course.  Nothing...it may act as if it lobbies etc but in the end all it does is grab support dollars from the turf industries, ball companies, cart companies etc and that is passed right thru to the individual clubs.  The same goes for all of the other associations also.  20 year ago, the MBA's had not grabbed hold of the associations and showed them how to make more dollars via qualifying sites, magazines, ratings etc.  They were just smaller simple groups handling handicaps etc for the state.  Today, the object is to bring in enough money to support a large staff that has to create more work.  One might say, well they run tournaments...yep and they have done that for years...
Read back on how the GCSAA was functioning a few years back when they first decided they needed to have the bigger headquarters etc.  And how much $$$ does the PGA of America have sitting there that could be used for retirement programs instead of bigger Port St Lucie...it's all BS feeding off of 16000 clubs that own the grounds and maintain the grounds that allow these dudes to act out their act.   But their biggest problem is not guys like me who tell them they don't need them.  Their biggest problem is the Golf Nows and NBC Golf Channel etc who will become a private sector USGA and handle handicaps etc for the individual instead of the club and they will not be hiding behind the "non profit" veil...

[Mike_Young]

I read the entire magazine praying to find an ad for GolfNow. No luck, but I would love to rent a GolfBoard at the Nicklaus course on the Florida Panhandle.

In Ga they did put the top dude at PGA Superstores on the executive committee.  Really nice guy and a good guy.  The first few PR pieces to come out promoted him as PGA Superstore and then it was changed to list the name of his club.  Think about that...420 clubs trying to sell to their members and the magazine for the association they support is taking big ad dollars to compete against them.  I guarantee the ad revenue cannot offset the sales lost by the total member clubs. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm a Catholic whose largest client is the State of Illinois. I find it best not to judge the organizations to which I am dependent.

[Mike_Young]

I'm a Catholic whose largest client is the State of Illinois. I find it best not to judge the organizations to which I am dependent.

I used to think I would be dependent of all those groups but then I realized it didn't really matter....

[Tim Gavrich]

Mike, how many rounds would you estimate that RTJ Trail ad drove out of the state?

I don't know.


Aren't the people likely to see that ad also likely to take at least one out-of-state golf trip per year, anyway?

Some will...


Would you also discourage state golf associations without year-round seasons from promoting warm-weather destinations?

Let me ask it this way.  If the owners of the course who make up the state association were on the boards making the decision do you think they would be taking ads from competition at times they were open other than in state courses?   And promoting a course far enough away to require a flight or overnight travel is a different matter.    Also, in Georgia they have several of these large adjoining state places come on as partners.  That's BS and owners would not allow such.

Mike--


Per Google Maps, it's a skosh under 600 miles and just less than a nine-hour drive from St. Marys, Georgia to The Shoals Golf Club, the northwesternmost outpost of the RTJ Trail. Would you not consider that journey "overnight travel"?


I looked through almost the entire latest edition of the GSGA publication online before being hit with a paywall, and it looked like roughly half the ads were for GA-based properties and businesses, and half weren't. Of the non-GA ads, there were Srixon and BMW, and then ads for the RTJ Trail, Myrtle Beach, Maggie Valley in NC and the Sheraton Bay Point Resort in the FL Panhandle. FWIW, all of these destinations are far enough from parts of Georgia to satisfy your "overnight travel" exception.


I'm guessing all of those non-Georgia advertisers (I don't have to guess for Myrtle Beach - I know it for a fact) derive the majority of their visitors from drive-in markets, and that Georgia-based visitors are an important part of their business.


This is true whether or not they advertise in the GSGA publication, of course, and GSGA members are going to visit those locales whether or not they see their ads in the magazine. Why wouldn't the GSGA want to get some ad $ - and why wouldn't these advertisers want the extra eyeballs/potential leads - especially if it would help defray the cost of the assembly of the publication and improve the Georgia-centric goals the GSGA pursues?


And if someone sees the ad in the GSGA pub, goes to Maggie Valley and has a great time, don't you think that will deepen that person's affinity for the association on some level?


From the standard rate of $40/year, by how much would you increase your GSGA membership dues if it meant only GA-based businesses were allowed to advertise within? To $80? $100? $200?


To assert that "taking big ad dollars" from non-Georgia advertisers is necessarily "competing against" GA golf courses belies a narrow and, IMO, inaccurate view of the golf habits of the audience.