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Kyle Harris

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Non-Standard Raynors
« on: June 28, 2017, 01:47:56 PM »
Are there any Raynor courses that do not use templates? How many 9-hole courses did he design?

"Asking for a friend," as all the young kids say these days.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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Mike Sweeney

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2017, 05:41:34 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Raynor


Only know of Hotchkiss as a 9 hole course.


I think the "template conversation" gets overplayed. Hotchkiss has a "short" hole, but it clearly has some Raynor greens. My counter is many of the "Template Holes" are actually "Template Greens" with a variety of holes attached to them.

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 06:58:14 PM »
Ocean Links for Tailer was 9, so was the one he did on the Whitney estate.


« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 07:20:32 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2017, 11:38:27 AM »
Raynor also designed nine holes for Taft School in Watertown, CT around the same time he was working on Hotchkiss and Yale. This course was replaced by more school buildings and athletic fields.


Everything I have seen on Everglades Club suggests Raynor only designed nine holes for that course.


Porto Rico Country Club built in 1919-1920 was also a nine hole design by Raynor.  This was the course connected to the Conando-Vanderbilt hotel.  I believe this course no longer exists.


The Greenbrier website also makes it sound like Raynor redesigned the original nine hole Findlay course which has been redesigned several times since.

Kevin Robinson

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2017, 01:01:34 PM »

It has been a decade since I played any of these clourses, so my memory might be faulty - OR the clubs have done some work...

 - I was fairly certain that Raynor at least DESIGNED 18 holes for Everglades - not certain how many of the holes were built prior to his passing. i do not have my copy of George Bahto's book in front of me, but I am fairly certain that Raynor made a couple different trips to S. Florida, and might have seen the opening of the 2nd nine right before he died.


While there ARE a few holes on the present course at Everglades that are immediately recognizable as template holes, I am a bit confused as to whether the Brian Silva work there is a faithful renovation or a completely re-worked "re-interpretation" of a Raynor course. There is (to me) a very odd Redan over water (the only one I am aware of), a Short Hole with the "Thumbprint" green, another Short Hole with a sunken green completely obscured by a "punchbowl" concave green complex (perhaps the only combination of these particular templates), a Biarritz that is surely the shortest example in existence, with a fairly deep swale in the middle of a green that is only about 30 yards deep, and a long'ish Par 3 17th hole that possesses a "Valley of Sin" - type depression in front. I have seen old aerials of the club that do not in any way resemble the present course - so your guess is as good as mine regarding what is left of Raynor's work at Everglades. I have tried over the years to stir up a discussion about Everglades, but to no avail - Either not enough people have seen it, due to the club's extreme privacy, or no one is interested in discussing it.


 - Another odd Raynor effort (odd meaning a seeming lack of Template holes) is Wanumetonomy. I was very puzzled when I played it back in 2006, as I could only find a handful of holes that resembled Templates...and even then I was not sure. George Bahto explained that this club actually WAS one of the courses that probably had the FEWEST templates, and he speculated that it was due to the fact that it was a "bonus" type gift to the community from Mr. Tailer, and it did not get the same level of attention as Fishers Island or the Ocean Links. It IS a wonderful golf course that nonetheless retains a great deal of charm as the bunkering and greens certainly feel like a Raynor effort.


 - Dedham has 12 holes that are separated from the other 6 (clubhouse side of the road) by a road. The clubhouse-side holes are (I think) remnants of Donald Ross' efforts there prior to Raynor being engaged by the club. The 12 holes on the other side of the road are a mishmash of different styles with only a handful of recognizable features. I THINK there might be an Alps-Punchbowl green, perhaps a Cape-type green, perhaps a Short Hole, and MAYBE a Redan...the scorecard adds to the confusion, because it gives many of the holes Raynor names, even though the Clubhouse-side holes are clearly not Raynor's work. So, as I recall, there were two Redans, one of which was a Ross hole, and a Biarritz (on the card) that looked like an everyday, ordinary golf hole. Still a really fun golf course with an old-school New England feel to it.


 - CC of Charleston's lack of template holes is well documented here on GCA


 - many of the older, poorly documented/recently discovered course such as Lake Wales, Charleston Municipal, Thousand Islands might never have had many template holes because they were built by others after Raynor died - they certainly do not have any NOW...


 - From what I could tell back in 2003, whatever work Raynor and Banks did at Green Park/ Blowing Rock did not include more than perhaps the Par 3 Template holes and MAYBE a Punchbowl.


 - I have some old aerials of Statesville CC in NC, and the grass greens in existence when these photos were taken (my guess is late 30's-mid 40's) are just plain and round - no idea what the course looked like when the greens were all sand. It now sits under a church and a couple hundred homes...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 01:13:29 PM by Kevin Robinson »

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2017, 01:40:27 PM »
Kevin,


I may be wrong about Everglades.  Perhaps he did design 18 holes, but as late as 1927 there were still only nine holes at The Everglades Club  In fact, when Raynor built the nine holes at the Everglades there was no land west of the golf course at the time, it was all Lake Worth. That land had to be suction dredged before that back nine was ever built.  Here is a story from the Palm Beach Post one month before Raynor passed away: (column 2)





Also there is a bond issue from Paris Singer in May of 1925 that makes it sound like Singer was contemplating turning the course into residential housing units:



I apologize for some of these stories being cut off, but I took screen shots of these years ago and the Palm Beach Post is no longer accessible through the Google News Archives website


Here is an aerial photo from the Library of Congress showing Raynor's original ninth hole:  The Biarritz.  This hole no longer exists as seen here.  Notice how there is only a lake to the west of the ninth hole:



In 1936, Langford was hired by the club to recontour the course, spending considerably more time on the back nine than the front.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 01:43:51 PM by Bret Lawrence »

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2017, 02:07:35 PM »
Here is a map indicating the land used for the original nine hole course


If you look to the lower left hand corner of the golf course you can see a little piece of yellow jutting out into the lake.  Perhaps it was the 8th tee box?

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2017, 04:37:29 PM »
Good stuff - so it looks like we're the "Last Nine Standing".  ;)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2017, 07:53:22 PM »
Raynor designed a private course in Louisiana for William Stauffer.  I don't have any other details but would guess it was a 9 holer.


Babson Park (aka Crooked Lake) was also a 9 holer and he is given credit for only 9 holes at Roselle CC in New Jersey.


I have no idea what the Edward Moore Estate course in Roslyn, NY looked like but like the Stauffer course I would guess it was 9 holes.  He also built a 3 hole course for J. P. Knapp in Southampton.


With respect to the Everglades Club, the second 9 holes was laid out by Raynor some time between 1924 and 1926.  By 1928 the aerials of the area depict 18 holes.  A 1928 listing of Florida golf courses notes only 9 holes, but a later listing in 1930 notes a 6,000+ yard course.


Mountain Lake was another course that was originally opened as a 9 holer with 9 additional holes being added a number of years later and as was recently discussed although Raynor designed 18 holes at Mid Pacific, the second 9 wasn't constructed until well after his death.


« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 11:47:06 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Kyle Harris

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2017, 09:16:33 PM »
Mountain Lake was the exigence for this thread. Did Raynor design the original 9? Is it possible that FLO, Jr. designed the first iteration to which Raynor, and later Banks, added?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2017, 09:31:12 PM »

Kyle,

Didn't Ruth hire Raynor on his own after Olmsted set aside a sizeable section of the property for golf?


« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 09:39:43 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2017, 10:03:16 PM »
Kyle,


Here is some information on Mountain Lake from the man who built it.  All the information you requested is in the first two paragraphs.
https://tinyurl.com/y9xbqwju


Bret

Kyle Harris

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2017, 01:41:07 PM »
Kyle,


Here is some information on Mountain Lake from the man who built it.  All the information you requested is in the first two paragraphs.
https://tinyurl.com/y9xbqwju


Bret


Thanks Bret.


Curiously, I'm not positive I can consider this a definitive sourcing for Raynor as the architect of the original 9. The article is for a Horticultural Society and readily admits to gloss over the architectural history of Mountain Lake. The credit to Raynor of all 18 does not infer he was the original architect of the first 9-holes. Clearly the 18-hole iteration is Raynor. The posthumous changes by Banks are also well documented.


I received a 9-hole routing of Mountain Lake with green and bunker details that is labelled only to Olmstead, Jr. No mention of Raynor. Both Par 3s on the routing (today's Biarritz and Eden) are not templates. I think the routing is likely an overlay as none of the home plots, roads, or other details such as the lakes so it's possibly simply a routing used for Olmstead's work but that further begs the question of why such detail and why no apparent templates!
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2017, 01:55:00 PM »
Mountain Lake

March 4, 1917 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -



March 11, 1917 Boston Post -



April 1917 Golf Illustrated -
















"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

V. Kmetz

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2017, 04:23:17 PM »
Hello,

As the discussion is far-ranging... and while the course is neither 9 holes, nor does it exclude Templates, for me, a vastly interesting course worthy of study is Blind Brook. As it has always been an ultra-private low profile club of mucky-mucks and now, a second club for "CEO's," it never receives much comment, but it is the most unique Raynor I've ever played... and my (until now, except to a few) secret #1.

The legend and a lot of fact hold that a "easy-to-walk/play course for aging gentleman" was commissioned, and this Raynor delivered, with a "88%" version of the Templates that is truly much gentler and amusing on the soul than the rigors of the canonical CBM-Raynor courses...

Some of the unusual features/oddities at Fishers...
  • A 280 yard "Cape" that wraps uphill R-L around a Willow-rimmed reservoir/pond...
  • A standard distance Short that plays semi-blind to a Bathtub green over a Spectacles pair of bunkers...
  • A nearly full size Biarritz where the small front "pad" is slightly left of center and banked into the left hill side, inviting a hard 45 degree bounce down and thru the swale...if you're really bold, you can try to hit a 215 yard shot to the rear "green pad" but the target is small and disaster (the eponymous Blin Brook) lurks to the right.
  • A 350 yard Punchbowl where there is no blind, front rim, but the a two tiered green inside the 2/3rds closed "bowl"
  • A 410 yard Road Hole that plays 30 feet down elevation has the single most attractive tee shot I've experienced.
  • It has a full sized-angled Redan, but no huge kicking features into its depth...
There's two Double Plateau greens (1, 9), a handsome Bottle ( 8) and a very unique (380 yards) Raynor's Prize dog-leg...

The three shot holes (1, 6, 13, 14) aren't all that interesting, except that they give a wide frame for a maximum tee hit and save for #6, are directly in the contemplation zone for getting on in two.

Last word...Bind Brook's conditioning...while current practices have grown more trim and edged than ever before, Blind Brook is still presented simply...the greens never roll more than 9...the rough is low and more flyer than gnarly... the bunkers are frank and the ball settles into playable spots from a sand surface that seems appropriate for the shot... the fairways are F/F enough, but not hyper-maintained down to tolerance that scares most of us with a 200 yard 3 iron or a 60 yard wedge.

Truly a unique Raynor...celebrating its 100th this year...

cheers
vk
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 04:25:05 PM by V. Kmetz »
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2017, 07:55:39 AM »
VK,


That sounds like a very interesting course, thanks for the detailed description.


Sven,


Regarding Everglades you mentioned a 1928 aerial.  I have also seen an aerial photo of the Everglades with a piece of white paper taped to the photograph labelled 1928-18 hole golf course.  Is this the photograph you are referring to when you mention a 1928 aerial or is there a collection of aerials from 1928 that are available for viewing? 


I agree there was a full eighteen course on the property prior to 1930, but I don't believe they started construction on the back nine until the Summer of 1928,  Like I said, it's not that I don't believe it was possible that Raynor designed an 18 hole course at the Everglades, it's just that I have never seen any contemporaneous articles that confirm it. 


The main reason I question whether the back was his design is the very standard back and forth routing you see in the older aerials and today.  How many times did Raynor draw up such a linear, back and forth routing?  The front nine was not linear originally, but has become more so over the years with redesigning and digging out more water hazards.


Bret


Kyle Harris

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Re: Non-Standard Raynors
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2017, 10:07:57 AM »
Sven,

Thank you for those more detailed articles. It seems Raynor was involved in both nines solo. Very good.

Also, thank you to the other contributions about other places. I'm interested in the Everglades Club.

As tends to happen with these things, this now begs a few questions as to why the configuration of holes (the 4th in particular) have changed through the years. Pure speculation on my part, but it makes sense that the 4th changed to its present corridor (a bit to the left of the old one) due to the expansion of what is now Scenic Route 17. Could this have also been the exigent of altering the original 8th and 9th holes into the current 8th hole (an all-world Par 5, in my opinion) and the addition of the "Short" 9th by Charles Banks?

I've heard from numerous sources the original 9th played to the current 8th green from a tee somewhere behind the current 9th tee. Obviously, this would make the hole the "Cape."
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

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