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mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
 This question arises out of the BB topic. My specifics are a variety of looks and challenging , strategic shots. I need the challenge to go from tee to green. I believe golf is played between the ears before the shot is hit. Those who are more technically proficient seem to focus on execution rather than the pre shot strategy.


This may be why I don't see the greatness of BB . I didn't think strategically very often.


 I think architecture is the key to greatness. Things like conditioning, history, and difficulty mean little to me.


 Since I don't want an argument I would like to know what others mean by great. I just want their reasons. Mike Sweeney touched on his reasons on the BB thread.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 05:48:09 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2017, 06:30:23 PM »
Which course? 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2017, 06:43:42 PM »
Which course? 

Ciao


That is just a fabulous answer - response!

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2017, 07:02:30 PM »
Which course? 

Ciao


When you describe any course as great what is your criteria?
AKA Mayday

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2017, 07:23:02 PM »
Mayday,


I don't play very often any more, although I want to and still enjoy the game very much. With the diminishing skills, my joy comes from greens complexes with multiple choices of recovery shots through useful employment of backstops, abrupt internal contours on the greens, and firm turf no matter the mowing height.


Secondly, I have grown very fond of facing a tee shot that gives me a specific line to attempt. Sunnningdale CC in Scarsdale, NY has taught me a lot in this regard, as it has several holes with diagonally running ridges and a couple plateaus that are perfect places to be for your second shot. Instead of standing on a tee with only the hope of hitting the fairway, I prefer to have a land feature that makes me think more specifically.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 07:43:03 PM by Joe Hancock »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2017, 07:38:34 PM »

When you describe any course as great what is your criteria?


Let's hear Mayday's Top 5 "great courses" not designed by William Flynn ?
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Peter Pallotta

Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2017, 09:06:18 PM »
Mike - I hope to know it when I see one. I'm guessing one thing: that the course will seem to be all of one piece, cut from the same cloth, completely itself, draped over the land, with no golf hole seeming to come from some other place/course, and with the variety of challenges and choices and demands and greens contours and hazards and vegetation all falling within the same basic and essential 'ballpark' and golfing milleu/ethos, and it will be about 6700-6800 yards long from the back and have less than four Par 5s (ideally one two of them) and will have at least one very long Par 3 while being dominated by Par 4s of all kinds. Not to get too specific!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 09:46:13 PM by Peter Pallotta »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2017, 09:43:28 PM »

When you describe any course as great what is your criteria?


Let's hear Mayday's Top 5 "great courses" not designed by William Flynn ?


Courses I have played of course but in no order---


Pine Valley
Ballybunion
Royal Porthcawl
National Golf Links
North Berwick




I could add TOC RCD Oakmont but I picked five true this minute.



AKA Mayday

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2017, 10:11:41 PM »
A great course is located in a special place and reflects its location.  The Old Course is incorporated into the town.  Prairie Dunes reflects its unique topography.  Crystal Downs offers spectacular views and feels like the northwoods retreat it is.


A great course - provides interesting but navigable challenges for all levels of player. 


A great course gets the details right.  Anyone can make a strategic golf hole but to make one that could only exist at that location separates a great course from a merely good one. 


A great course is still fun to play when weather blocks any special views the course provides.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2017, 10:15:46 PM »
Variety
interesting length holes 260 par 3's,87 yard par 3's, 490 uphill par 4's that require two woods, others that are reachable.
Playing a routing over, around, and throughout the property rather than hiking to a series of elevated tees/views or to hit a prespecified place for a certain hole (9 or 18)
Unusual landforms used in the golf course.
A course that fits into its surroundings and APPEARS to be simply constructed or found.
Hazards to be considered that are contained within the intended golf course area-not at the perimeters to penalise your errors(bonus points for indiginous playable hazards such as native light scrub, broken ground, dunes, etc. but also crevices, railroad tracks, gorse, heather, creeks)
Scenery-(unusual vegetation, views as backdrop, looks across the course, looks off the course)
Choices off the tee
Interesting and varied greensites with varieties-elevated, angled away, greens at grade, punchbowl, benched into hills, tilt inducing strategy
a course where occasionally a hazard is to be avoided with a wide angle reducing wide berth, or other holes where there is a preferred position, but being out of position is its own penalty but not so obviously, and also tee shot friendly holes that allow total freedom to let go to gain more advantage via power, and finally the odd hole or two where accuracy itself is it's own reward and wilder hiiters may need to choose a super safe play.


Such a course could be quite difficult (The island or Long Cove) or quite gettable in the right conditions (Northwest, Southampton,North Berwick)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 10:32:47 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2017, 10:27:16 PM »
...
A great course - provides interesting but navigable challenges for all levels of player. 
...

So Pine Valley doesn't make the cut!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2017, 10:29:34 PM »
What Jeff said.

I guess I would add that I prefer that there be no contrived looking features (think church pews, bath tubs, etc.).
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 10:31:41 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark Kiely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2017, 04:05:15 AM »
My instinctive answer is a bit of a "chicken or the egg" quality: hole-by-hole memorability. When I first play a course I enjoy, I can typically run through the routing again in my head immediately – and forevermore. Is that caused because (most) every hole was interesting in some way, or because the routing works especially well, or some other factor, or a combination of those? I'm not sure. I know I value variety, so a course that offers different looks and requires different types of shots appeals to me, but it has to create a cohesive whole while presenting those different looks and shots. I typically prefer elevation changes of some significance somewhere along the way, and a good variety of hole lengths within a given par.


I'm not really sure if this is the kind of answer mike_malone was looking for. Or is this a non-answer? I'm sort of confusing myself here.
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2017, 05:16:42 AM »
Reply 9 by Jeff seems to sum things up quite nicely. Couple of additions - on sand and easy walking.
atn

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2017, 06:17:38 AM »

Pine Valley
Ballybunion
Royal Porthcawl
National Golf Links
North Berwick


I could add TOC RCD Oakmont but I picked five true this minute.


(SNARK ALERT - Ran gave me a Mayday free pass.)



So Mayday likes very old overseas seaside links with few environmental restrictions and very old VERY FANCY USA private clubs that are on everyone's Top 10 list !!


Mayday is top heavy!! :)


In two years, we push the "reset" button on our family logistics and your post reminds me that I need to get overseas golf trips back in my life. Thanks


To answer your question, I think a great course starts with a great site. There are obviously exceptions such as Merion (quarry??) and Yale (rocky Connecticut on just okay soil) where there is great architecture. This site and Ran has taught me the value of sand based golf - inland and seaside.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2017, 07:03:52 AM »
A great course engages the intellect such that one is both mentally exhausted at the end of a round and mentally invigorated.


Ira

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2017, 07:44:33 AM »
Great responses, excepting Sweeney.


  Variety of images and thinking seems high on the list so far.
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2017, 07:47:38 AM »
 Aronimink and BB are probably together in that greatness which tests you throughout. I just don't get that as great. But respect those who see that. I just think that limits the audience.
AKA Mayday

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2017, 10:33:24 AM »
A great course has to have great greens complexes. They don't all have to be difficult but shots into and around the greens should require thought and good shot making. The tee ball doesn't need to difficult but should give the player options as to distance and direction. History, conditioning, and difficulty all go in to making the round enjoyable. The first time I played Pebble my playing partner friends said, unbeknownst to me, "You walk with Tommy for a while. I don't need to hear that much about the course."
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2017, 11:23:17 AM »
Reply 9 by Jeff seems to sum things up quite nicely. Couple of additions - on sand and easy walking.
atn


There goes ANGC...
fail on both
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2017, 12:09:02 PM »
The first time I played Pebble my playing partner friends said, unbeknownst to me, "You walk with Tommy for a while. I don't need to hear that much about the course."
The guy obviously can't appreciate a good sermon!  :)  His loss

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2017, 12:21:04 PM »
Which course? 

Ciao


When you describe any course as great what is your criteria?


Each course is different.  Since it took me several years to conclude Kington is a great course, I will say the biggest reasons for its greatness is the expert use of the hilly site, the design creates great angles , the short game is highly engaging and the beautiful turf drains very well. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2017, 12:30:58 PM »
There's great and then there is Great.


For the former, you can maybe make up your own checklist of things the course should have.  But the courses in the smaller, latter group will tend to prove your checklist is meaningless, because they are undeniably great in spite of violating at least one or two of your criteria.

Peter Pallotta

Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2017, 12:46:06 PM »
There's great and then there is Great
For the former, you can maybe make up your own checklist of things the course should have.  But the courses in the smaller, latter group will tend to prove your checklist is meaningless, because they are undeniably great in spite of violating at least one or two of your criteria.
+ 1
Everyone (at least those worthy of their crafts) starts out to make a great golf course or a great movie or a great album. And sometimes they do absolutely everything right, and the course/book/movie actually does turn out great. Which makes me think that the reason so few works manage the next step and become truly Great is because the final/last piece of the equation has nothing to do with "doing everything right". Instead, depending on your point of view, it is either an Accident or an Act of Grace.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 12:48:11 PM by Peter Pallotta »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What specifically makes a course great , in your opinion?
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2017, 12:54:16 PM »
There's great and then there is Great.


For the former, you can maybe make up your own checklist of things the course should have.  But the courses in the smaller, latter group will tend to prove your checklist is meaningless, because they are undeniably great in spite of violating at least one or two of your criteria.


This is Oakmont for me. I'm not a penal golf course fan but Oakmont is the epitome of that style.
AKA Mayday

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