That's a wrap - Bethpage Black

[Mike Sweeney]

I have not played it in years, and my son wanted to play it with his buddy before he leaves for San Diego and his summer Navy training. Dylan's buddy had to bail, so we have:

• Dylan Sweeney - long, but wild hitter
• Mike Sweeney - medium and very wild hitter
• Nate Oxman - GCAer making the trip from Philly

Check-in time is 11:15 am, so we meet at 11 am at the bag drop outside the pro shop. If you are offline, you can shoot me an email mws13@me.com


Fairways and Greens

[Frank Sekulic]

I played Bethpage last Friday and the course was in immaculate condition.


Anyone who has never played it should definitely make the effort as it a true gem.

[mike_malone]

I'm ready to play the five good holes they have here.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mayday Malone is in for a Philly vs New York match

[Mike Sweeney]

Very fun day with Nate and Mayday at Bethpage Black.


Mike Malone has been a fun target here at GCA.com for years, but he is a REAL golfer. At 67 years of age, he pushed a borrowed at the first tee of The Black, buggy/pull cart for 18 holes and the Philly Boys smoked us 3 and 2.


I played Shinnecock last fall and BB today. The Black is just too much for me at this point in time. It clearly has a place in the modern game and it has become "The Mecca" for low handicappers, but it is too much for me. At 6600 yard white tees, dense rough surrounded with long fescue, it really is a beast. This is not a complaint. It is surrounded by 4 very good courses that allow it to have this unique place in golf and today was the day to pass the torch to the next generation:



He is wild, but he was 80-90 yards past us on a number of drives during the round. He does not have the time to play, so his score is crap, but the USGA/PGA/RAGC need to understand that it is a bifurcated game these days. Technology + Fitness + Agronomy = 95+% of existing courses being irrelevant for the "pro golfer".

Fairways and greens.

[mike_malone]

 Nate Oxman was the real golfer.


#5 is my favorite hole because I'm a Flynn guy who likes angles. It is a right angled tee shot to a left angled green.


 I still say there are too many flat straightaway holes that pull this course down from greatness for me. Length and bold features aren't architecture to me.

[Neil Regan]

....
#5 is my favorite hole ...


 I still say there are too many flat straightaway holes that pull this course down from greatness for me. Length and bold features aren't architecture to me.

Mayday,


  I think you show good taste in favoring #5.


For those of you who don't know Bethpage and have not met the wry Mayday, his final sentences might confuse.
There are 4 flattish holes and 3 "straightaway" ish holes at Bethpage. And the course has never required extraordinary length. Just decent length and accurate judgment of it.


...

[Mike Sweeney]

#5

[Michael Felton]

....
#5 is my favorite hole ...


 I still say there are too many flat straightaway holes that pull this course down from greatness for me. Length and bold features aren't architecture to me.

Mayday,


  I think you show good taste in favoring #5.


For those of you who don't know Bethpage and have not met the wry Mayday, his final sentences might confuse.
There are 4 flattish holes and 3 "straightaway" ish holes at Bethpage. And the course has never required extraordinary length. Just decent length and accurate judgment of it.


...

Which ones are the flat straightaway ones? 11 is the only one I can think of. Flat you could maybe add 3, 7, 10 and 13 (although not the way I played it once - I pulled my second shot onto the road over there and it rolled all the way down through the woods. I hit a full 8 iron to get back up the hill. Not enough club). Straight I guess there is 16 and 18 as well. And the par threes, but that seems like a strange criticism for a par three.

[mike_malone]

 Since I think Flynn is the ideal designer I judge courses based on what he does well. Mostly he creates angles magnificently. He also often combines the aerial and the open approach to greens. This allows various ways to play holes.


BB predominately has well protected greens with few angled greens or bunkering and little chance to run the ball on the green.


This is uninteresting to me because the shot to the green is usually just to aim for the center of the green with little strategy

[Keith Grande]

Run up shots available on #1/7/11/12/13/16


uphill greens on 2/4/5/10/15/18


My biggest gripe is the constant narrow fairway lines at all times.  It's only a PGA event once every few years, but they insist on keeping it that way year-round.

[Cliff Hamm]

Looking at the picture of number five it sure looks like a golf cart. I thought golf carts were not allowed on BB?

[Mike Sweeney]

Looking at the picture of number five it sure looks like a golf cart. I thought golf carts were not allowed on BB?

The player was hurt and they carted him off. Nothing serious we were told.

[Cliff Hamm]

Oh, sorry...I've always been surprised that BB as a public course has not had to make appropriate accommodations under ADA for carts.  That might mean teeing off in front of a tee if not accessible, but surprising.

[Mike Sweeney]

Oh, sorry...I've always been surprised that BB as a public course has not had to make appropriate accommodations under ADA for carts.  That might mean teeing off in front of a tee if not accessible, but surprising.

Yes, but that is the unique feature of BB. It is surrounded by four other courses that cater to a variety of golfers, abilities, and such.


Bethpage State Park caters to all, and they typically have a "9 hole course" for the day which helps maintenance.


"The Black" could not exist as a stand along course.

[Cliff Hamm]

Mike...I won't hijack the thread but it still surprises me.  To say that Bethpage State Park caters to all is not acceptable.  If someone with a disability desires to play BB they should have the opportunity.  As stated, reasonable accommodations might mean every element of the course is not accessible, but no access would seem to be a violation of the law.


Saying you can play the red or whatever is not good enough.  Access is access and BB does not provide it for those with disabilities.

[mike_malone]

Run up shots available on #1/7/11/12/13/16


uphill greens on 2/4/5/10/15/18


My biggest gripe is the constant narrow fairway lines at all times.  It's only a PGA event once every few years, but they insist on keeping it that way year-round.

11 is also a nice hole. There is strategy off the tee and some runup chance. 12 and 16 have short grass but it seems not to be on the angle of approach .

[mike_malone]

 I am curious what others think makes BB great.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike...I won't hijack the thread but it still surprises me.  To say that Bethpage State Park caters to all is not acceptable.  If someone with a disability desires to play BB they should have the opportunity.  As stated, reasonable accommodations might mean every element of the course is not accessible, but no access would seem to be a violation of the law.


Saying you can play the red or whatever is not good enough.  Access is access and BB does not provide it for those with disabilities.

Cliff,



Trying to be very respectful.

We have a severely Autistic son, and my wife has spoken about Dustin's journey on Broadway:

https://www.tedxbroadway.com/talks/2017/1/11/theater-for-all-katie-sweeney

Dustin just did his first Off-Broadway show as a performer:

https://vimeo.com/221189803

Golf courses are like Broadway in many ways. Some shows I like, some shows Dustin likes. The Book of Mormon is a severely racist show, and I really enjoyed it. If we make it perfect/acceptable for everyone, then it would be boring.

Here are my two sons with my younger son's Caregiver, who celebrates Eid al-Fitr this weekend:




My other son is a Midshipman at the United States Naval Academy. He leaves tomorrow for PROTRAMID in San Diego where he trains with the four main service assignments out of the Naval Academy - Subs, Ships, Aviation, and Marines. It is silly for me as a taxpayer to expect PROTRAMID to be open to everyone. There are requirements to get into the Naval Academy, and requirements to stay in the Naval Academy.

DYLAN WAS HURTIN TODAY AFTER WALKING/CARRYING AT BB

It is silly for me as a taxpayer to expect Bethpage Black to be open to Dustin. His Midshipman varsity athlete brother could barely handle it and he literally put drives 80-90 yards past Nate, Mayday, and me on #1 and #4. (He got cocky and the BB gods kicked in after that!)

I realize that my two sons give me a unique/extreme view, but it is a real view.

Bethpage Black is not for everyone and we can ask Mayday Malone to confirm

[Mike Sweeney]

I am curious what others think makes BB great.

I am re-framing our round after a range session on Friday. Nate Oxman's compact swing genuinely inspired me and I dialed down the long/coiled/wild swing where I was trying to keep up with Dylan. I grabbed the higher lofted driver, and it worked on the range for one day.


Now if I could take that swing, move up a set of tees and re-play the round, it would be like BB in 1989 when I first discovered the course as a Philly kid in NYC with no access to private clubs.


BB had, and now has even more so, great/heroic tee and fairway shots that are unique in golf.  Case in point is the 9th hole:





All three of the short hitters played it safe and we all were in the valley right of the bunker. It we had moved up (my fault to play the 6600 yard course), we could have challenged that bunker, and then challenged that green with a shorter iron. Now back in 1989, the 9th simply used the natural land form. I personally like the placement of the Rees Jones bunker, but may want to see a different shape someday.


None other than Mayday Malone agreed with me that the 2nd hole is underrated - especially the second shot into the elevated blind-ish green:





The greens hold back BB from Top 10 status, but for me, it will always be a Top 25 course and I am more than open to the conversation that they could dial down the rough. Wedging out is much less fun than going for the green out of thiner rough that creates a flyer and forces a green side recovery shot.

[Bill Raffo]

Tee to green, is there a course that extracts a higher price from a player not in possession of his "A" game off the tee? An exhilarating course if you're splitting fairways and absolutely demoralizing if you're out of the rough all day.  I love the course and will be making the annual trip to play it in July.


In terms of the greens, it would be mind blowingly difficult out there if you also had to deal with greens like the 11th at Quaker or the 10th at Winged Foot.  The fact the course gives up almost an automatic two putt on every hole is the balance.  If they ever decided to redo those greens, they'd have to make that sign a lot bigger. It would be the most masochistic course in the world.

[Nate Oxman]

A big thanks to Mike for setting up my first visit to Bethpage Black. I thought it was really good, other than the first and the final four. A few other thoughts:

I agree with Mike that the greens hold Bethpage Black back, but also understand Bill's point that the course would be super difficult for the average player (yes I remember the sign) if they were more contoured. They did feel small to me, though, considering most are hitting long clubs into them.


I also agree with Keith that the fairways are far too narrow.


The par 3s didn't wow me.


I shall definitely return.

[Ronald Montesano]

https://www.bethpageproshop.com/photos/black.pdf


7400 to 6700 to 6200. The course plays to all male levels, save the short-hitting beginner/geezer. If I am still golfing at age 75 and am able to play the red tees at The Black, I will be a happy geezer.


I've played the Black and also watched my varsity boys compete on two occasions, in the NYS HS federation championship. Those black tees are soooo for the pros. A kid shot 73 this year at Feds, and that is the lowest score I can imagine from any HS kid in NYS.


The Black has an awesome routing. The 4th and 5th are essentially straight, even though there is some wiggle to them. It is the angles described above that make the difference. You don't need to follow the fairways; you simply need to find them.


You also need to know where to miss on La Negra. She will penalize you mightily if you can't find the suitable error zone, both off the tee and into the green. You can't strive for the extra yards off the tee, because they won't help. If someone asked me what two things I would take to the 1st tee at BPB, I would ask for a straight, solid driver and partial wedge game. If I could get up and down 4-6 times from 50 yards and in, I could shoot a career round. I would have to play to my strengths, not the ones I expect from the pros.


I'm not a fan of the 8th or 17th holes. They are exciting, but the tree on the right of 8 needs to go, and the green at 17 is a unlike any other at the course, and does not fit the hole.


I would like to see the 6th hole have less rough. I think that you could mow the entire hole and it would still be a difficult par. Having a downhil approach from that rough is a bear. 6 could be one of the few grip/rip holes on the course, where you could have a shot at driving close to the green.


I equate the 7th with the 18th at Cooperstown/Otesaga. You think that you can bite off more, but after you play it, you realize that you don't need to. It sets up oddly, until you have played it enough and can pick your target line.


10 and 11 are good, half-par holes. Play for 5 and try to steal a 4.


18 needs zero bunkers and a better green. For major championship play, let 2 be a possibility. Let them make a number. Even the Old Course says "all right, I've spanked your cheeks all day. Here's your chance to make a number." Get rid of the rough, get rid of the sand. Not everyone would try to drive the green, so those frugal chaps and chappettes could lay up first, and leave the hero/fool play to those in need of a miracle.


I've more to say. I love the Black. Unique in its challenge, exacting in its pound of flesh.

[Mike Sweeney]

Ron,


A good summary of BB. I am a huge fan of 7 (as a par 5 for amateurs) and 17 as is, but understand your feedback.


The match was over and we were all mentally exhausted on #18, so my first reaction walking to the tee was "18 Red still would be a better closer". After playing Black 18, I thought, that was harder than I remember. So perhaps I will re-try on a cooler fall day (and maybe the rough will have its winter cut).

[Kyle Harris]

That new bunker on nine still looks as atrocious as ever. It remains an example of a solution in search of a problem.