[Tommy Williamsen]

it may be I am just more aware of it, but it seems that newer courses have more false fronts than there used to be. I am not talking about championship venues but also regular clubs. It seems that Ross designed them but they seemed to have lost their luster in the 60's, 70s, and 80s. I don't remember false fronts on courses I played as a kite or clubs I belonged to whose courses were built in that time frame. My imagination?

[Jon Wiggett]

Tommy,


I think you are correct. Don't forget that when Ross was designing the running game and more natural look was very much the norm. Then, with excessive irrigation courses became softer. The air route became the norm and then courses started to protect their greens with front bunkers and semi-rough. Now, false fronts are more the norm as an aesthetic but I would question how much the running game has really returned at many of these courses.


Jon

[archie_struthers]

We've got a bunch of them at my home club , Greate Bay.   Willie Park  , Jr.




Not a fan of really big ff's s , e.g.  18 at Winged Foot

[MCirba]

Archie,


I suspect you wouldn't care much for the 9th at Cassique on Kiawah Island...


[Img]https://goo.gl/images/9duZVn

[archie_struthers]

 




Mike I'm way les judgmental than in my younger days .    It looks fun but I  wouldn't build it . 


You know I can't stand collection areas lol ,

[Tommy Williamsen]

I like an occasional false front but more than a couple on a course seems too many, especially when they run some twenty yards doen the fairway. It seems like a lot of false fronts are on uphill shots where the fairway runs away as well. The first hole at Ballyhack has a false front that goes more than a third of the way into the green on the front left. Until two years ago any ball that was short would trundle down the fairway twenty yards or so and collect in one place full of old divots. We put in some rough that stops the ball short of that but starting on that hole is difficult. I will generally hit my shot to the right side of the green.

[Carl Rogers]

Ballyhack has false fronts on 5, 9, 11, 12, 14 & to a lesser extent on 15.  They are all on super steroids.

[Pete_Pittock]

it may be I am just more aware of it, but it seems that newer courses have more false fronts than there used to be. I am not talking about championship venues but also regular clubs. It seems that Ross designed them but they seemed to have lost their luster in the 60's, 70s, and 80s. I don't remember false fronts on courses I played as a kite or clubs I belonged to whose courses were built in that time frame. My imagination?

More elevated green pods being constructed instead of building at near grade?

[Tom_Doak]

The reason for false fronts on newer courses is ... faster green speeds.


It used to be you could have an uphill approach but still see putting surface on a tilted green.  Now that most architects believe they can't have more than 2% slope from back to front, anything more than fifteen feet uphill (or even twelve feet on a short approach - you get 5 feet for the golfer's eye level plus 2% which is six feet for every 100 yards) will be blind.  As a result, many architects establish a false front so you can see a bit of putting surface from the fairway.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TD, very much more mathier than you usually get, but of course, you are right on.  I usually use false fronts only on uphill holes that wouldn't be visible otherwise.


Another reason for most architects is the intense cost pressure in most cases to make every square foot of green cuppable.  A soft false front in the first 10-15 feet would still remove one pin, since few would set a front pin that close to the roll off area, for fear of golfer complaints.  I have done small roll offs in only the first 5 feet or so, either front, or right front side in place of a bunker, especially where I have bent fairways to complete the roll back effect.

[Bill_McBride]

Is the entire eighth green at Pasatiempo a false front?

[Thomas Dai]

Is the entire eighth green at Pasatiempo a false front?

Not in relation to the course Bill mentions, but I was wondering the same about a whole load of Dr Mac greens with the unpinable front ramps and tongues. Harry Colt knob-to-knob par-3's as well. But at least they give you shot options rather than just up-the-air, land it soft golf.
Atb

[JC Urbina]

Bill McBride,


Not only does the 8th hole at Pasatiempo appear to you as a false front it has what I call a progressive slope, something that many modern designs do not have.

[Phil McDade]

My thread from (wow!) nearly a decade ago, with some good pics from folks:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37649.0.html

[Jeff_Brauer]

It may be I am just more aware of it, but it seems that newer courses  women have more false fronts than there used to be.

Yeah, couldn't resist fixing that one for you.  Poor taste? Of course!

[SL_Solow]

This post is an excellent example of why I continue to come here.  I too have noticed a proliferation of false fronts with varying effectiveness.  I never connected this trend to the increase in green speeds and the impact on gradient.  Thanks to Tom and Jeff for this insight.  To many of us amateurs, design features appear to be a product of the architects imagination and design preference.  But practical realities often intrude and solving those problems while retaining one's creative vision is for me , part of the very essence of what the professionals do.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Thanks for all the replies. I figured there was a reason for more false fronts (on greens not women). I just didn't know why. It makes sense to be able to see the green on uphill shots.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride,


Not only does the 8th hole at Pasatiempo appear to you as a false front it has what I call a progressive slope, something that many modern designs do not have.

JC, years ago I was playing with Neal Meagher, Bay Area architect, who whipped out his incine measuring tool on #8. In the middle of the green, front to back, the slope was 8%!  Even putts across the back edge dive toward the front. Is it the steepest green there?

[David_Madison]

A wonderful set-up is a false front with the green then floating away from front to back after reaching the crest of the false front. We have these at both Pine Needles and Mid-Pines. These approaches take tremendous imagination and touch and in a way offer some reasonable defense against bombing and gouging.

[Thomas Dai]

Maybe a slight tangent from the topic here, but frontages to greens such as in this photo of a famous green, were I imagine never meant to be pin-able/putt-able.






So why have such 'ramps' (my term) at the front of greens?


I have heard it suggested that in some areas of the world (climates/soils etc) the grass types are such that unless the ground is very 'baked-out', near hardpan even, shots wouldn't in yee-olde-days run much on grass mowed at fairway height of cut, especially up slopes, so 'ramps' like this were mowed at green h-o-c at the front of greens so approach shots could be landed on them and permit the ball after landing to release up to the pin-able/putt-able areas.


Thoughts?


atb

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not 100% sure about that.  I know the Shinney Redan was measured at 12%, and I have seen many greens from the 30's to 50's measure at 6% or more.  Seems like LA country club had some 8% greens before they "softened them" to 4%.......


That looks a bit steep, but greens were steeper in those days.

[Kalen Braley]

Can you "successfully" run greens at 8+% if you stimp em at 6 or less?  Was 6 common 40 years ago and before that?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Karen,
Near as I can tell,


1950's - 6% typical
1960's - 4% typical
1970's - 3% common
1980's 2.5% common
1990's - 2% common
2000 - Sub 2% getting common.


All on typical courses, and not sure of typical green speeds much before the 1990's, where 10 was a lot.


I have measured tournament courses, and know the Masters and others use the old "digital scale in two directions" to determine acceptable slope at a cup location.  Max is average of combined reading of 5 to 5.5 (higher at back of greens where fewer will be putting downhill)  If you get a 3 and a 2 reading, or 5, and use the old Pythagoras theorem, that comes out to just less than 4% - Square root of 13 is 3.6%.  Square root of 3 + 2.5 is 3.9%. Max is 4% in one direction and zero in the other.  That is for 12-13 green speeds.


Of course, assuming that front part of ANGC was close to double digits, cross slopes and the length of run without much counter slope to stop the ball might still entice them to roll of the front of the green.  Even at slower green speeds, it looks iffy, and I have to wonder if Mac knew exactly what slope he could get away with.

[Matthew Petersen]

A wonderful set-up is a false front with the green then floating away from front to back after reaching the crest of the false front. We have these at both Pine Needles and Mid-Pines. These approaches take tremendous imagination and touch and in a way offer some reasonable defense against bombing and gouging.

That was the 6th hole at Erin Hills this past week and it played as one of the three toughest holes for the week.

[JC Urbina]

Bill,


#8 is the steepest, it has grade changes up to 11% in some areas.  The flattest area being 4%,  as the green shrinks over time the two pin placements that start to get lost are the back right and middle left.  Contrary to popular belief the 16th green does not have the steepest  slopes, it does however have the biggest grade changes. 


#3 and 9 green were much steeper but years ago someone made changes to the fronts of these two greens to reduce the slope.  They artificially raised the green leaving a gigantic rise in grade from fairway to green, during the restoration, I with help from Dean Gump and staff raised the fronts of the fairways  to mask the grade changes.


Most people know that the 11th green was totally rebuilt  a few years back, they use that green in the Pasatiempo web site to show what was changed or at least they did.  It was the only way to correct the  major reshaping of the 11th green creating the large false front.  I took pictures before we started to document how the green was altered in the 80's and how much the green was raised. 


A side note, I have photos of almost all of the holes before the restoration effort began.  It is truly amazing how the evolution of the golf course changed from the 70's-80's and 90's as compared to what it looks like today.

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