[Mark_Fine]

Joe,
I hear you but not sure I agree about too short.  At Bandon Dunes, which is as close to links golf as you get over here, it is hard to tell at times where the fairway ends and the green starts.  You can play almost any club you want from in front and around those greens. 


The grass at Erin Hills seems longer/sticky around the greens (maybe because the greens are so perched they wanted it longer). 

[Phil McDade]

Unless a course is poorly designed it is nearly impossible for width not to matter in relationship to angles.


Ciao

Sean:


I think this is what Jason is getting at....is EHills a "width for width's sake" course or one in which the placement off the tee matters? One could reasonably argue -- based just on these scores and these conditions for these players -- that it's the former, and thus doesn't reflect any kind of insightful design.


I'd argue differently, and I have some seen some anecdoctal evidence (Fowler slinging some long draws into holes) that width does matter. But there's an argument out there that stuff like proper angles and hazards in the line of play simply don't matter much to these guys when their game is on and they aren't asked to do much more than hit the ball far and straight.

[Joe Zucker]

It seems like all the rain has reduced the importance of width.  Not only do they bomb it, but 8 irons are stopping quickly so being on the correct side of the fairway is obviously less important.  There is not a lot anyone could do about this, but it seems like an obvious factor in addition to the length these guys hit it.  The British Open is usually the best example of width contributing to a course and it's not a coincidence these are the firmest courses in the world. 


I think the width is awesome at Erin Hills and could make for really interesting  strategy, but the conditions didn't really allow for that to show this week. Very different from what the players faced at the Amateur in 2011.

[Steve Lang]

 
     Since EH was built to be a major championship venue, I guess one can basically ignore the common amateur player in its gca design and I’d just say EH’s width, is width for width’s sake.

Perhaps more importantly it all argues against the foolish notion of designing or imposing a links design into any non-linksy (i.e., not overly-windy) environment or a location.  Just can't depend on it to defend.  Is there be a minimum long term yearly average wind speed or gust speed criteria for links courses?

I do see a commercial wind power project in Juneau, WI about 35 miles NW of EH… but have to wonder.  Couldn’t resist looking at some linksy golf sites’ data to put things into perspective..



So, yeah, I saw the waving hay eye-candy in some early telecasting today.  Looked nice, I suppose that’ll make great marketing pics for USGA. I will likely go play someday to project my last pro dreams and lament my amateur failings there… I’ll probably play it once like Chambers Bay just for the taste.  But probably visit WI again first to watch neice play college hockey… not experience the fescue
 

[Terry Lavin]

The USGA doesn't really love the Midwest for a handful of reasons, but the tendency for too much precipitation and not too much wind is part of the calculus. At EH, the precipitation might make the course soft but at least it can be displaced without risk of flooding the course. On the other hand, hard to import wind when you need it.


Overall EH held up just fine.

[Mark_Fine]

Erin Hills proved to be a very entertaining venue.  Hard for anyone to say it didn't provide excitement and entertaining golf.  It just wasn't what we have come to expect with a typical U.S. Open.  It was a shootout and not a survival test.  The course was as advertised, some kind of hybrid.  It looks like links and has links like features but doesn't really play like a true links design.  All in all I thought is was pretty darn good and I need to get back out there to play it again (hopefully when it is firm and fast with some wind). 

[BCowan]

They were a week too late. We had lots of wind for the Walking Gathering in the Windy City last weekend.  Flossmoor delivered pain. I would think EH wind was somewhat close to ours.

[Phil McDade]

They were a week too late. We had lots of wind for the Walking Gathering in the Windy City last weekend.  Flossmoor delivered pain. I would think EH wind was somewhat close to ours.

Very true....an Open at EHills a week ago would've been a blast to watch. The players would have played a course somewhere in between the knife-edge Shinnecock Hills of 2004 (Goosen/Mickelson) and the shoot-out we saw this week. I'm guessing something around 6 to 8-under would've won.

[jeffwarne]

Erin Hills proved to be a very entertaining venue.  Hard for anyone to say it didn't provide excitement and entertaining golf.  It just wasn't what we have come to expect with a typical U.S. Open.  It was a shootout and not a survival test.  The course was as advertised, some kind of hybrid.  It looks like links and has links like features but doesn't really play like a true links design.  All in all I thought is was pretty darn good and I need to get back out there to play it again (hopefully when it is firm and fast with some wind).

+1


that said
Which "typical" US Open are you referring to?
2009 Bethpage? rainslopfest
2010 Pebble? dead bumpy greens
2011 Congressional? scoring record on soft/wet course
2013 Merion? a boutique Open where the par 4 tees looked like par 3 tees littered with divots
2014 Pinehurst? hardly typical and an example of no imagination/variety around the greens but rather a putter
2015 ? Chambers Bay-no words to describe


It rained quite a bit 3 of the 7 days/nights at EH
Those expecting links conditions were disappointed-it's a prarie/kettle moraine course-not a links-though when the weather cooperates it can be fiery a la 2011 Amateur


The top 3 in the world couldn't keep it in the wide fairways.
Would narrowed fairways have produced a better test?
or just more irons off tees and higher scores.


Sadly, nearly all classic courses have become boutique venues under our watch (incredibly disappointing) and we'll see more long beasts constructed and rota courses retired.
How championship relevant is Inwood now? (one of my favorites)
or Siwanoy (a fine course)
Myopia (awesome)
or many other obsolete major venues...


Don't get me wrong-I like EH a lot,and I like that they let them hit drivers, but I'd like it more if today's golf on EH could've been played simillarly(with regulated equipment) at 6900 yards on 15% narrower fairways on about 20% less acreage.(like baseball)
and Koepka would've still been hitting it 300+ because he's a beast.
and everybody would walk less.

[Jason Thurman]

Unless a course is poorly designed it is nearly impossible for width not to matter in relationship to angles.


Ciao

Sean:


I think this is what Jason is getting at....is EHills a "width for width's sake" course or one in which the placement off the tee matters? One could reasonably argue -- based just on these scores and these conditions for these players -- that it's the former, and thus doesn't reflect any kind of insightful design.


I'd argue differently, and I have some seen some anecdoctal evidence (Fowler slinging some long draws into holes) that width does matter. But there's an argument out there that stuff like proper angles and hazards in the line of play simply don't matter much to these guys when their game is on and they aren't asked to do much more than hit the ball far and straight.

Sean, you nailed the question. And I watched less than 30 minutes of the first two days, so when I asked it I really didn't know the answer. I was just looking at a bunch of low scores and wondering what was going on.


I think it's safe to say that the people who post to this discussion group are, on balance, fans of width. And likewise, I've read posts extolling the virtues of width on here for years. Some of the recurring points are below, along with my thoughts on them as it regards the 2017 US Open:


Width accommodates the poor player, while challenging the better player to take risks to gain an advantage
As a poor driver of the ball, I'll vouch for the first part of this statement. But I'm not sure I can identify many examples of the better players int he US Open taking on risk off the tee to set up a better angle on their second shot. I'd like to review more data like that linked by Matthew Essig in one of this thread's early replies to see if finding the correct angle on certain holes led to more frequent birdies or bogeys. But it sure looked to me like all Erin Hills' width really did was encourage players to make full shoulder turns and pound the ball as far as they could.


Width makes the "correct" play more difficult to discern
I think this definitely can apply to everyday players like me, but it sorta seems like if pros have short grass under the ball, then they made the correct play to get there. They're good enough to take advantage of the increased control almost regardless of angle.


I mean, if width was doing its job, shouldn't there have been at least one spot in at least one fairway from which a player would need a heroic shot just to hold the green? I've played Erin Hills, walked Erin Hills, and now watched a major at Erin Hills, and I can't think of such a spot out there. Is that design flaw? Does the course need wilder greens to make angles of approach matter more? Or are modern players just too talented to stop if they have short grass under their ball? Or did the rain soften things up enough that this week was an aberration?


Sorry for all the questions. I'm just trying to figure out how in the hell these guys made one of the toughest courses I've ever played look like a pushover.

[Mark_Fine]

Soft conditions (especially receptive greens) negates angles of play which comes from width.  A good player doesn't even need to see their target if they know the distance and know the ball will stop close to where it lands. 

[Matt MacIver]

     Since EH was built to be a major championship venue, I guess one can basically ignore the common amateur player in its gca design and I’d just say EH’s width, is width for width’s sake.

Perhaps more importantly it all argues against the foolish notion of designing or imposing a links design into any non-linksy (i.e., not overly-windy) environment or a location.  Just can't depend on it to defend.  Is there be a minimum long term yearly average wind speed or gust speed criteria for links courses?

I do see a commercial wind power project in Juneau, WI about 35 miles NW of EH… but have to wonder.  Couldn’t resist looking at some linksy golf sites’ data to put things into perspective..



So, yeah, I saw the waving hay eye-candy in some early telecasting today.  Looked nice, I suppose that’ll make great marketing pics for USGA. I will likely go play someday to project my last pro dreams and lament my amateur failings there… I’ll probably play it once like Chambers Bay just for the taste.  But probably visit WI again first to watch neice play college hockey… not experience the fescue

Steve - cool charts - what are the three courses?  I know which two I would have comped EH to for this exercise. 


I love width for width's sake, especially if it messes with even one pro like J-Day who needs to / can only bomb it.  I would have loved to see Ricky sling some running hooks up there, but even doing so doesn't prove good architecture - just length.  Without fast and firm or wind, width alone doesn't offer much protection for guys who can throw darts. 


Was the US Open at EH a success?  Enough so to return?  Sooner than Chambers?  FWIW, i enjoyed watching the ball on the ground more at Chambers, broccoli and all. 

[jeffwarne]

After all the hand wringing about the unplayable/unfindable fescue...


Does anybody know how many balls were actually lost?
I can't even remember one where they only moved it a few feet

[Keith Grande]

If they didn't have spotters, I'm sure there would have been a few.  Casey whiffed one in the thick stuff.

[Buck Wolter]

I heard an interesting theory that this years Open penalized the real wild hitters more than  most -- that a typical US Open you are penalized more for missing a fairways by a couple yards than  for missing by 20 as you end up where the gallery has stomped it down (I think Mark Lye said that on XM). While Koepka is a bomber most of the rest of them either missed the cut or weren't a factor.

[Phil McDade]

I mean, if width was doing its job, shouldn't there have been at least one spot in at least one fairway from which a player would need a heroic shot just to hold the green? I've played Erin Hills, walked Erin Hills, and now watched a major at Erin Hills, and I can't think of such a spot out there. Is that design flaw? Does the course need wilder greens to make angles of approach matter more? Or are modern players just too talented to stop if they have short grass under their ball? Or did the rain soften things up enough that this week was an aberration?


Sorry for all the questions. I'm just trying to figure out how in the hell these guys made one of the toughest courses I've ever played look like a pushover.

I think this is the most interesting debate about EHills, far moreso than fescue thickness or length. I do think there are spots on the course where being in one particular place in the fairway holds an advantage over some other spot on the same fairway (hole #4, presumably), depending on the day's pin.


But if you eliminate the four par 3s, and -- for argument's sake -- the four par 5s (which are more about positioning the approach shot), you're left with 10 par 4s, and it's probably a decent argument that for most of those, there really isn't a place on the fairway that requires a heroic shot to reach and hold a green. Two of those par 4s -- #2 and 15 -- are all about positioning, and the rest are ones where length this past week was rewarded far more than placement.


Having said that, I think it's hard to over-state how much the wetness and softness of the course impacted play, and denuded the course's defenses. Harder-to-hold greens and bouncy, running fairways would've put much more of an emphasis on placement off the tee, and not make it so much of a bomber's paradise.

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