Blind green shots on par 4 or par 3 holes - Championship courses - Scotland

[MClutterbuck]

Erin Hills is producing some interesting debates. One of them is blind shots. A friend on site says #5 and #8 produce unfair blind shots. I quickly referenced that would be normal in Scotland, but he disagrees.


What are the best examples of great courses in Scotland that host professional competitions that have blind greens on par 4s and 3s?

[Thomas Dai]

Cruden Bays 15th would be an example of a blind par-3 and CB hosts the Northern Open every now and then.
Maybe need to define 'blindness' in relation to par-4's - blind from the tee, blind from the fairway?

Atb

[MClutterbuck]

On the par 4s I was referring to a blind second shot to the green.

[Jon Wiggett]

Gleneagles Kings has one to the 3rd green and blind tee shots on 2, 7, 14 and 18. Prestwick springs to mind and many others have blind tee shot including TOC.


Jon

[Greg Gilson]

Cruden Bay 14

[Sean_A]

Much of the time with links, a well placed drive offers a view and an off drive leaves a blind shot.  Seems very reasonable to me.


Ciao

[Joe Zucker]

Much of the time with links, a well placed drive offers a view and an off drive leaves a blind shot.  Seems very reasonable to me.


Ciao

I think this is true of 8 at Erin Hills too.  It's been a few years since I have played it, but I think you can see the green if you are out to the right.  However, this leaves a longer approach into the green compared to a ball that hugs the left side of the fairway.  This leaves the golfer with the choice of distance vs. a view.  As Sean says, this seems like a reasonable trade off to me.


I have no idea where the pro tee is for this hole, so perhaps it's not possible to get a sight of the green, but I think it is possible from the tees regular humans play.

[Mark Pearce]

The fact that Cruden Bay and Prestwick are being mentioned underlines how rare this is on gourses in Scotland that host professional events.  I'm struggling with which approach shot is blind at TOC.  8th?

[Andy Stamm]

The fact that Cruden Bay and Prestwick are being mentioned underlines how rare this is on gourses in Scotland that host professional events.  I'm struggling with which approach shot is blind at TOC.  8th?

13 and 5 are the approaches that are basically totally blind. 8 is pretty blind as is 4.


The 1st at Carnoustie is totally blind. The Spectacles is also totally blind. And the 12th is mostly blind with a little piece of the green visible between the mounds.


3 of those are par 5s, but they're going to be blind when going in two and when laying up, so it's not like there's much of a way to get a look at the green.

[Mark Pearce]

The fact that Cruden Bay and Prestwick are being mentioned underlines how rare this is on gourses in Scotland that host professional events.  I'm struggling with which approach shot is blind at TOC.  8th?

13 and 5 are the approaches that are basically totally blind. 8 is pretty blind as is 4.


The 1st at Carnoustie is totally blind. The Spectacles is also totally blind. And the 12th is mostly blind with a little piece of the green visible between the mounds.


3 of those are par 5s, but they're going to be blind when going in two and when laying up, so it's not like there's much of a way to get a look at the green.

TOC 5 isn't really blind on a lay up.  I'll give you 13.  Not convinced by 4.  I think what we're basically saying is that a couple of courses that pros play on regularly have a couple of blind holes.  Muirfield doesn't have any (unless you're horribly out of position on 12 or 17), nor, I think, does Turnberry.  I've only played Troon once and don't recall one but something is nagging there, is there one around the turn somewhere?  Certainly, it's not as common feature of Scottish Championship courses as it is elsewhere in Scotland.

[MClutterbuck]

The fact that Cruden Bay and Prestwick are being mentioned underlines how rare this is on gourses in Scotland that host professional events.  I'm struggling with which approach shot is blind at TOC.  8th?

13 and 5 are the approaches that are basically totally blind. 8 is pretty blind as is 4.


The 1st at Carnoustie is totally blind. The Spectacles is also totally blind. And the 12th is mostly blind with a little piece of the green visible between the mounds.


3 of those are par 5s, but they're going to be blind when going in two and when laying up, so it's not like there's much of a way to get a look at the green.

Spectacles played par 4 last Open?

[Andy Stamm]

TOC 5 isn't really blind on a lay up.  I'll give you 13.  Not convinced by 4.

I think 5 is as blind as it gets really except for a hole like 15 at Cruden Bay. While it's possible to stop the ball on the top of the hill with a view, that's never the play. It's blind from both short of the bunkers and from the dip. And the shelf is very short, so you're either going to go for the green or lay up short of the bunkers, both of which will be blind. With wind it's really going to play blind. Wind into and the top of the hill may not be reachable. Downwind good luck getting the ball to stop anywhere with a view other then by reaching the green. And who would try to run a ball between the bunkers up the hill to then get it to stop on that shelf? If you had that shot in the bag, you'd be reaching the green. If you watch play virtually everyone will be hitting a shot into the green blind. Even chips from green high left are blind. The exception would be those who hit a massive pull left in there 2nd and play from 14 fairway. But nobody does that on purpose. Those that do have a view will not have played strategically to gain the view.


As for 4, you certainly can hit it down the chute and have a view of the green (obstructed by the pimple). But no-one takes that on for a view. Some people will play for the chute if they can't make the carry left, but they're laying up anyway. In a match you might try to drive the second chute to reach/finish just short. But again that's very, very rare. With wind from the right it's gonna be blind. With wind from the left, you play well left away from the trouble, and it's blind. At the end of the day, if you go out and watch play, it will be blind for the overwhelming majority of players unless they play it to take 3 shots into the green. So, I'm calling that pretty blind.


I'm not saying that it's common or not. I'm just saying there are a few examples on both the Open courses in that corner of the world.

[David McIntosh]

If talking about North Berwick (local final qualifying venue when the Open/Scottish Open is held in East Lothian and hosting this year's Ladies British Amateur Strokeplay) then the 14th approach is obviously blind. The second shot on the 3rd is also often blind due to either driving into the dip in the fairway or, if beyond that, the combination of the camber of the fairway and the wall, particularly if on the left side.

Whilst not really blind, the green isn't in view on the approaches/tee shots to the 13th, 15th and 17th either.

Mark,

The 3rd at Muirfield is another hole which follows Sean's description of a well positioned drive (left side) giving a view of the green and a poorly placed one (right side of the fairway) resulting in a blind approach over the mound.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,

The 3rd at Muirfield is another hole which follows Sean's description of a well positioned drive (left side) giving a view of the green and a poorly placed one (right side of the fairway) resulting in a blind approach over the mound.

True.  I don't consider such holes as blind, though, expecially not when (as with 3 and 17 at Muirfield), hitting it where it is blind doesn't give an advantage (i.e. it's not a shorter route to the hole, or a better angle).


Isn't 17 at NBWL also a blind approach?

[David McIntosh]

True.  I don't consider such holes as blind, though, expecially not when (as with 3 and 17 at Muirfield), hitting it where it is blind doesn't give an advantage (i.e. it's not a shorter route to the hole, or a better angle).


Isn't 17 at NBWL also a blind approach?

You're correct that hitting it to the right on the 3rd at Muirfield doesn't give any advantage. In fact, it's a penalty of sorts as the approach is at a more awkward angle and has to carry two greenside bunkers as opposed to the approach from the left side up the length of the green.

It needn't be necessary for there to be a reward for hitting it where it is blind though and in the case of Muirfield's 3rd it's a relatively short par 4 with a generous fairway so I think it's fair for the player to be disadvantaged for hitting it right when they know they should be staying left. In my view, the only criteria for a hole qualifying as blind is whether you can see where you're hitting the tee or approach shot.

The flag can usually be seen on the second shot to the 17th at NBWL so I didn't classify it the same way as the 14th above. It's a different matter if playing the third shot from the layup area before the trench bunker though as the pin is normally out of sight from that close in.

[Niall C]

Moray Old has hosted the Northern Open a number of times including I think this year. Blind shots as follows;

2nd green is a bathtub and while you can see the flag you can't see any of the surface from anything more than 10/15 yds.

4th is longish par 3 with semi-bathtub green that sits at an angle such that back half is blind.

5th - completely blind approach

16th - blind approach as surface of green lies below level of road that runs in front of green.

18th - back half of green is blind which make the approach to back left very difficult to judge and land on safely.

Re Troon - a lot of the blind shots have been eliminated over time however the 9th approach and the 10th drive are both blind.

Niall