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Brad Engel

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Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« on: June 06, 2017, 03:55:01 PM »
I recently had the great fortune of playing Crystal Downs for the first time alongside a golf course architect with extensive knowledge of the course’s history. As we were enjoying a post-round libation, he shared with our group some fascinating stories regarding the course’s early days.

The one that struck me the most was some folklore around how the #9 hole at Crystal Downs was “discovered”. Legend has it that MacKenzie had run out of hooch and had told Maxwell to run down to town to replenish their supply. Upon his return, as they were imbibing near the location of the current golf shop that overlooks the front 9, Maxwell says to MacKenzie something to the effect of “Doc, you’ve only got 8 holes here…” to which MacKenzie responded “Well we’ll just put one in right here” as he points right below where he was standing on top of the hill along the ridge. And so the routing for the front 9 at Crystal Downs was completed (allegedly ;) ).

While this story might be completely false and the stuff of urban legend, it sparked my curiosity to hear what other course design/construction folklore might exist for some of the architecturally significant courses discussed frequently by GCAers.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2017, 04:08:32 PM »
Brad:


Though I'm not the architect you played with, I did print that story in the USGA's book on the centennial of Golf in America, back in 1988.


The story has long been told around Crystal Downs but with a former editor for The New Yorker at the helm, the USGA tried to verify it.  Best they could do was to contact Press Maxwell, Perry's son, still alive at the time.  Maxwell responded that he "had heard that story," so they decided it was ok to print, even if that's not quite the same as a confirmation of fact.  ;)

Ryan Farrow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2017, 08:20:13 PM »
The hole felt like an afterthought to me... I think it is plausible.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2017, 08:29:26 PM »
The hole felt like an afterthought to me... I think it is plausible.
But perhaps the kind of afterthought that only happens when you're drunk, or when you're currently drinking -- after having sent out your prized associate to get some more liquor...


For better or worse, this is the sole aspect of great golden age design that isn't being replicated now during the modern day renaissance!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2017, 08:59:27 PM »
Such afterthoughts can occur without alcohol, too. 

Ian Andrew

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Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2017, 06:31:32 AM »

I've long believed the biggest wives tale in golf architecture is "the architect pointed the tees away from play to fool the golfers."


The surprising part for me is when someone within a club becomes adamant that this was the intent on a particular misaligned tee when all the others line up.

With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2017, 03:06:20 AM »

I would find it hard to believe that Mackenzie was constructing without a plan. Taking that into consideration it seems unlikely that he had not noticed he had only 8 hole before Maxwell pointed it out but it is a great story if it is true.


Jon

BCrosby

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Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2017, 09:06:24 AM »
I love the MacK/CD/"Oops, I forgot a hole" story as much as anyone, but I always thought it implausible.


Mostly because (a) there was only one par 3 on the front nine through the 8th (something even a boozed up architect would not miss), and (b) how else were you going to get players back up the hill to the clubhouse after playing the 8th?


BTW, I think the 9th is a good hole. Uphill par 3's are hard to design.


Bob 

Brad Engel

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Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2017, 10:11:30 AM »

I agree that #9 is a really strong, uphill par-3. I too am skeptical about whether the story is actually true, but the fact that it even exists is fascinating to me which is what prompted me to explore whether other "urban legends" were out there about any of the courses commonly discussed on this site.


Brad

I love the MacK/CD/"Oops, I forgot a hole" story as much as anyone, but I always thought it implausible.


Mostly because (a) there was only one par 3 on the front nine through the 8th (something even a boozed up architect would not miss), and (b) how else were you going to get players back up the hill to the clubhouse after playing the 8th?


BTW, I think the 9th is a good hole. Uphill par 3's are hard to design.


Bob

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2017, 05:06:13 PM »
That is the pro shop at #9 green, not the clubhouse, and the pro shop was only built around 1950. Before that there was only the clubhouse, up on the bluff, with no golf holes very close to it.


However the story derives from MacKenzie and Maxwell's first visit to the site, when they were working on the routing, the year before construction of the front nine started.  He didn't draw a completed plan with only 8 holes!

Mike_Young

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Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2017, 05:45:56 PM »
Have heard of an archie who was designing a course with John Daley in Myrtle Beach.  Word was he sent him the plans to review.  He took a sharpie and wrote across the bottom of the plans " I counted them; there's 18; let's go with it. John Daley"
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Garland Bayley

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Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2017, 07:00:51 PM »
Have heard of an archie who was designing a course with John Daley in Myrtle Beach.  Word was he sent him the plans to review.  He took a sharpie and wrote across the bottom of the plans " I counted them; there's 18; let's go with it. John Daley"

Who's John Daley? Any relation to Paul?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Peter Pallotta

Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2017, 08:41:13 PM »
Coincidentally or not, the Par 3s at CD get relatively little mention around here. I didn't notice that until after I'd played the course myself. A few days later, in recapping my round with Joe H, I said that besides the 8th hole what I liked best and remembered most were the Par 3s. He noted that he rarely heard that from anyone playing the course for the first time. But I did really feel that way, and I still do. There is a purity and directness about the Pars 3s (including the uphill 9th) that is very appealing, and very 'golfy'. There is also an unforced and understated challenge to each of the 3s. All of which is to say: who knows if the story is true, or what parts of it may be. But the story reflects/suggests a lack of preciousness and over-thinking and look-at-me attitude on Dr Mac's part that has served those golf holes very well. That said, it may not be a coincidence that for every one time that the 9th is mentioned one or other of the famous short 4s is mentioned about a hundred times.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 08:49:32 PM by Peter Pallotta »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2017, 09:00:57 PM »
 I heard something about a flash flood during the construction of Rustic Canyon. I would like to hear that story.


 
AKA Mayday

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2017, 10:28:03 PM »

Not 100% on topic, but from one of my recent Golf Course Industry Columns, called "Senior Moments in Golf Design:"


 [font=]While many of these are documented, some are anecdotal, so I present them only as legend…..(wink, wink)[/font]
[font=]Math Mistakes – Part 1, Correlating Units[/font]
[font=]When Donald Ross designed a course in western Canada, he sent plans with horizontal measurements in yards and vertical elevations marked in feet.  [/font]His green detail showed grades as “0”, +5, (-2), etc.  The inexperienced contractor assumed all units were in yards, initially building mounds and green contours 3 times higher than Ross intended, resembling the nearby ski hills.
[font=]Other architects have had problems when first working in meters rather than feet.  [/font]A meter is 10% longer than a yard, causing some exaggerated contours. It happened on my first Asia project, but I liked the boldness, and figured slower greens would allow us to get by with wild contours.     
[font=]Pete Dye doesn’t use plans, but likes to contour greens aggressively, like he did at the original TPC.  [/font]The pros formed a committee to work with him to soften greens.  One pro commented, “Pete, there is nothing wrong with that mound in the middle of the first green…..but you liked it so well you repeated it 17 times!” 
[font=]Math Mistakes – Part 2, Simple Counting[/font]
[font=]Inverness and Crystal Downs mistakenly were routed with only 17 holes, and fixed by inserting a par 3 hole.  [/font]Robert Trent Jones is said to have handled a comparable situation by saying, “When you pay me, I will tell you where the last hole goes.”
[font=]There’s an old saying – “If a routing plan is finished easily and quickly, it probably has 17 or 19 holes.”  [/font]At least having 19 holes on the first try allows an excuse – you were proposing a “betting hole.”
[font=]Another had budgeted 120,000 Sq. Ft. of bunker sand, but placed an 180,000 Sq. Ft. sand bunker between the first two holes built, requiring a change order to build the other bunkers on the course.[/font]
[font=]Even the Best Made Plans…. [/font]
[font=]Blueprints (and modern digital images, reversed with the click of a button) have been printed backward, or at wrong scale. One architect designed a long and narrow green, but mistakenly drew it 90 degrees to hole, creating a wide and shallow green.  [/font]In many cases, golfers wouldn’t know a green design was wrong, but in this case, the backing mounds were in front of the green, hiding it from golfers.   
[font=]Another architect designed the greens in 1” = 20 feet scale, but inadvertently put 1” = 30 feet scale on the plans, resulting in – to his surprise - greens being built 50% too large. [/font]
[font=]Contour/Elevations labeling mistakes occur – one architect designed a 10-foot-high mound, but actually drew – and got - a 10-foot-deep hole. To save face, the architect maintained he wanted the deep hole, even requesting it be made deeper to sell the story.[/font]
[font=]Crossing the Line[/font]
[font=]Property lines are sometimes inconvenient, and some have built golf holes on adjoining property.  [/font]Sometimes the Owner will buy the required property as being a cheaper correction than rebuilding the offending golf hole(s).
[font=]Sometimes You Don’t Notice It Right Away…or Just Don’t Care[/font]
[font=]Failure to account for future tree growth is a common design mistake, in back yards or along fairways.  [/font]However, trees grow so slowly, no one notices for decades as their hole gradually becomes poorly designed.
[font=]I have seen a few large trees used to create dog leg par 3 holes, which tree hugging golfers seemingly continue to happily play.[/font]
[font=]Tropical Trees have been proposed in Northern climates, which sometimes lasts a few years, but ends in dead trees sooner or later.[/font]
[font=]You can’t beat Mother Nature[/font]
[font=]Large waste sand areas have been designed in rainy climates where unwanted plants (i.e., weeds) grow too easily, quickly over running the sand, which is often eliminated later.[/font]
[font=]Beach bunkers were trendy, until someone realized they couldn’t be drained properly, since the drain pipes were underwater. [/font]
[font=]Designing without site analysis has led to many problems, including building a golf course on the contaminated soils old salt mine, where turf wouldn’t grow, and allocating the best land at a multi season resort for golf on the north side of the hill……. leaving the ski hill south facing the sun, and very slushy slopes. [/font]
[font=]Surely, Someone Has Tried Chocolate on Roast Beef[/font]
[font=]Looking for a unique signature, one designer experimented with a “flooded grass bunker”, but turf wouldn’t grow under 3” of water, and water moccasins soon used it as a sunning area, hastening its early demise.[/font]
[font=]Failure to Keep Track[/font]
[font=]Busy architect and consulting tour pros hand work off to talented associates, limiting their design participation to sporadic sites visits, where their project unfamiliarity can be embarrassing.  [/font]One architect, proclaimed a huge mound near a green to be “an excellent spectator mound, just as I envisioned”. Everyone else knew it was just topsoil storage pile.  Others have had to be told what hole they are on, or maybe even the name of the course.
[font=]Carts – Can’t Live With Them, Can’t Live Without Them[/font]
[font=]Some architects leave paths to be field designed during shaping, occasionally resulting in expensive cart tunnels, either to hide paths, or because course circulation forced them to tunnel under a tee.[/font]
[font=]One architect lined fairways with a solid row of huge mounds.  [/font]Golfers couldn’t access the fairways from the paths, and gaps had to be cut in later.
[font=]A Fitting Finale - A Senior Moment in A Senior Community[/font]
[font=]Years ago, in a senior citizen community, the golf course featured par 3 holes averaging over 240 yards, out of reach by the locals.  [/font]Maybe the developer insisted that the architect stretch the course through the community to yield more golf front lots, regardless of how it would play for future members, because such courses still get built.

[font=]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/font]

[font=]There could be a longer column on construction mistakes......[/font]
 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2017, 10:22:16 PM »

Might have actually had a folklore moment this past Thursday.....


On a renovation study plan, the super, agronomist and I were lifting lids off catch basins and manholes to look down and figure out where a mishmash of drain pipes were running.  This is commonly and colloquially referred to as


As two of us were on our knees, looking down the hole, a golfer came up, concerned and asked if something was the matter. Not wanting to reveal anything in what is so far a fairly confidential study, I replied, "No, just "sniffing manholes."


He shrugged his shoulders, walking off while muttering "perverts."  It took me a second to even consider he thought it had an entirely different connotation........ ???
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brad Engel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2017, 01:36:18 PM »

Mike - After some internet sleuthing I was able to dig up some information on what happened at Rustic Canyon. Legend has it that when the flood came through the canyon, it buried a few holes with up to 4 feet of mud. This obviously had some pretty significant impacts on a number of holes. The blog at the link below actually does a great job of showing the evolution of the 7th hole from before, during and after the flood/mudslide. Check it out!


http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.com/2013/08/rustic-canyon-golf-course-moorpark.html

I heard something about a flash flood during the construction of Rustic Canyon. I would like to hear that story.


 

Joe Hancock

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Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2017, 01:40:45 PM »

Might have actually had a folklore moment this past Thursday.....


On a renovation study plan, the super, agronomist and I were lifting lids off catch basins and manholes to look down and figure out where a mishmash of drain pipes were running.  This is commonly and colloquially referred to as


As two of us were on our knees, looking down the hole, a golfer came up, concerned and asked if something was the matter. Not wanting to reveal anything in what is so far a fairly confidential study, I replied, "No, just "sniffing manholes."


He shrugged his shoulders, walking off while muttering "perverts."  It took me a second to even consider he thought it had an entirely different connotation........ ???


I just saw Peter Sellers in "The Pink Panther Strikes Again". Your story reminds me of when, early in the film, Clouseau pulls Dreyfuss from the pond and administers mouth to mouth....two old ladies walk by, one mildly interested while the other mutters "Perverts!". Classic.....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2017, 02:07:31 PM »
Was there not a North Korean leader who designed a course by playing it thus scoring x number hole in ones  ;D

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2017, 02:13:24 AM »
One story I heard about Loch Lomond in Scotland, Tom Weiskopf was walking the site by himself before construction began and wandered into a peat bog. Before he knew what he had got into, he was stuck to above his knees and sinking, with no one around. He was hollering for help for some time before a guy out walking his dog heard the shouts and came to investigate. Apparenty Tom was up to his waist by the time they pulled him out.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2017, 03:28:59 AM »
Steve O:


Yes I can confirm that story as I heard it from Tom Weiskopf himself, although he described it as "quicksand" and I always wondered whether there was really any of that in Scotland.  A peat bog makes more sense!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2017, 08:13:16 AM »
Had that happen at the Quarry.  Only problem was, no passer bys, and near dark. Luckily, I fell in a peat pocket (not wet) where a tree had fallen over and was able to avoid falling all the way in by holding the tree roots.  Otherwise, I might have been a bigger mystery than Jimmy Hoffa.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brad Engel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2017, 11:03:50 AM »

I recently had the privilege of checking out Merion for the first time and throughout the course of the round was treated to a number of cool historical insights from our hosting member.

Legend has it that after being commissioned by the Merion Cricket Club to create a layout for a proper championship golf course, Hugh Wilson traveled to Scotland to study courses for inspiration. He was originally scheduled to return stateside in 1912 on the fateful maiden voyage of the RMS Titanic. Prior to departure, the club messaged Wilson and instructed him to remain in Scotland a bit longer to check some additional courses in the area. So basically, without a bit of luck, there's a good chance that the Merion folks know and love today almost didn’t exist!


Bonus Wicker Basket Folklore:
  • According to our hosting member, the colors of the famous wicker baskets are red (front 9) and orange (back 9) because of the two original mower companies, Toro and Case respectively.
  • In the weeks leading up to the US Open in 2013, the USGA was adamant that the club replace the wicker baskets with regulation pin flags for competitive rounds. The club was equally firm in their conviction when responding “The wicker baskets stay, or you can find yourself a new location for a tournament." We all know who ended up winning this battle...
Related image


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2017, 11:18:55 AM »
I believe that story about the Titanic has been debunked by the historians here, but the old Merion threads are much too long to look it up!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting Course Design/Construction Folklore
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2017, 11:23:03 AM »
The accidental fire at Bandon during Pac Dunes construction is one of my personal faves....

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