Scotland Trip Rankings

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,


Do you have a problem for ANGC as the Masters is played there every year? Yes, in perfect conditions the winning score might be 25 under par but that is only a problem if you think par is more important that quality of play. On the other hand, in the last Open held at TOC there was a day when very few managed to break par so that kind of shoots down your argument. It is also a weak argument to put forward that there are too many drivable par 4s as when you look at the actual play. Except for the last, very few players go at any more than one other par 4 green.


Niall,


I suspect the reasons for The Open being played at TOC so often is partly good PR for the R&A locally, partly finance and partly due to the fact that TOC is the most famous/recognisable course on the rota by quite a margin.


Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Peter,
I can appreciate where you're coming from but do you not think that as something becomes over-familiar and less difficult it becomes less 'special', boring even, irrespective of how historic and traditional it may be?

By the way, short paragraphs are much easier to read and understand, at least they are for me.
Atb

[Peter Pallotta]

Sorry, Thomas - yes, others have mentioned that as well. My only defence is that, as the thoughts occur to me and I'm typing away, it *feels* (to me at least) like a single/unified paragraph, and so it somehow seems wrong to break it up merely because of convention. But perhaps I need to rethink that!


On your main point: yes, I suppose it's a matter of taste and temperament: one man's boring is another man's comfort and continuity.
Peter

[Bob Montle]

While I disagree with J's conclusion that the Open should be played less at TOC, I do take his point that TOC is comfortably the easiest of the Open venues and absolutely requires wind to challenge the players.  No wind at TOC means 69 is a very mediocre score.  Thats said, I am not overly fussed about this simply because when the course is firm TOC is comfortably the most entertaining Open venue.  If guys shoot 64 and win that doesn't worry me if I am entertained.  If there is any golf event I am going to want to see it is the Open at TOC...everything else is second place.

Ciao

+3

[JWinick]

Jon,


Unlike the Old Course, which anyone can play, or walk on at any time, ANGC is highly private and only a small percentage of the golfing viewing public will ever actually see the course in person.    Additionally, the Masters has always been at a single course, and I think few would argue that it works well.   The Open Championship is supposed to be rotated around the best courses in the UK, and I think the Old Course would benefit from a little less exposure.   


There are multiple-par 4s that can be drivable in the right conditions.   


Best,


Jon

Jon,


Do you have a problem for ANGC as the Masters is played there every year? Yes, in perfect conditions the winning score might be 25 under par but that is only a problem if you think par is more important that quality of play. On the other hand, in the last Open held at TOC there was a day when very few managed to break par so that kind of shoots down your argument. It is also a weak argument to put forward that there are too many drivable par 4s as when you look at the actual play. Except for the last, very few players go at any more than one other par 4 green.


Niall,


I suspect the reasons for The Open being played at TOC so often is partly good PR for the R&A locally, partly finance and partly due to the fact that TOC is the most famous/recognisable course on the rota by quite a margin.


Jon

[Sean_A]

Few would argue the Masters works well?


Ciao

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

When I watch golf, or play it, I want a test that is "challenging but fair."  For me a course is challenging when it requires a player to hit all his clubs well, playing from sloping lies to targets that favor different types of approaches (high, low, fade, draw).  A challenging course demands imagination when playing shots around and on the green.  A challenging course tests a player's judgment in assessing risks/rewards and his steadfastness in execution.  These same features also make a course interesting, both for playing and for watching professionals.  So where does "fair" come in?  Any of the traits above can be carried too far, rendering a course unfair.  Is "challenging but fair" the essence of good GCA?  I think that would be going too far.  Enjoyment needs to be part of the equation too.  For less-skilled players, the challenges described above can be overwhelming.  Some courses may be excellent tournament sites, while others are ideal for everyday play.  A very select few may provide equal measures of enjoyment for players of all skill levels.  Those courses may be the pinnacle of GCA, but they are far and few between.  Is TOC one of those courses?  I think so, even if tour players were able to go double-digits under par under windy conditions.  I doubt any of them thought TOC too easy, and I certainly found it interesting viewing...perhaps especially when you saw how the driveable par fours could jump up and bite even top players.

[James Brown]

The Open at TOC is the true test.  Separates great from good better than anywhere. 

[Niall C]

The Open at TOC is the true test.  Separates great from good better than anywhere.

.....Tom Kidd, Bob Martin....

[Rich Goodale]

....Ben Curtis, Todd Hamilton, etc. etc.


TOC is a good track but the only reason it gets special treatment is that it gives the R&A members a chance to grab the best seats overlooking the 18th green.


And, JonW


Excellent review of your trip.  If other posters could find the happy medium between minimalism and bloviation we would be a better website.


Rich


PS--I think you meant the 8th and 17th in the description of Dornoch.  The sixteenth is not only the inverse of the other two (geomorphology-wise), it is very controversial to the cognoscenti.


rfg

[Rich Goodale]

Just to clarify, when I said JonW above I meant the JonW(innick) who started this post and not JonW(iggins).



My bad....

[Niall C]

..or even Jon Wiggett 

[James Brown]

The Open at TOC is the true test.  Separates great from good better than anywhere.

.....Tom Kidd, Bob Martin....

Since WWII, the winners at TOC:


Sam Snead
Peter Thomson
Bobby Locke
Ken Nagle
Jack Nicklaus
Jack Nicklaus
Steve Ballesteros
Nick Faldo
John Daly
Tiger Woods
Tiger Woods
Louis Oosthuizen
Zach Johnson




Only two of these guys are 1-time major winners. 


Had I the time today at lunch, I would do this for the whole rota and see what it shows...

[MClutterbuck]

The Open at TOC is the true test.  Separates great from good better than anywhere.

.....Tom Kidd, Bob Martin....

Since WWII, the winners at TOC:


Sam Snead
Peter Thomson
Bobby Locke
Ken Nagle
Jack Nicklaus
Jack Nicklaus
Steve Ballesteros
Nick Faldo
John Daly
Tiger Woods
Tiger Woods
Louis Oosthuizen
Zach Johnson




Only two of these guys are 1-time major winners. 


Had I the time today at lunch, I would do this for the whole rota and see what it shows...

You left out Tony Lema, so it is 3 single major Champions at St. Andrews post WW2. Still quite a list of great golfers, and Oosthouizen can still win another.


The average winning score is just better than -10 although the last 4 editions were -19 (Woods at his best), -14, -16, -15. I wonder if somebody has the average for the field, but the cut was -1, +4, +2, E.


Still, if somebody is worried about under par scores for winners and cut scores, youŽd better look at several US PGA Tour venues. There are probably over a dozen with lower scores in relation to par...

[Niall C]

James


Why since WWII and not before ? If you want to be that selective then Muirfield trumps TOC. There have been 9 Opens since WWII and all have been won by multiple major winners. There have been 16 Opens in total since 1892 and only one that the winner was a single major winner. Indeed of the list of winners 13 out of the 16 won the Open more than once which means, if you take the Open to be the ultimate test as I do, that Muirfield is a measurably superior test to TOC.


All of which is very interesting but really the discussion is about over exposure and I still agree with Jon that we see TOC too much and that as a consequence it begins to lose its allure. Just my opinion.


Niall

[Phil Lipper]

Why does it matter that the best 120 players on the planet can drive a bunch of par 4s on the course or that the best couple in the world can get around 4 rounds in -15?
To me that little to do with the greatness of the course.

[Darren_Kilfara]

You really, really have to play the Old Course at least 5-6 times, and probably rather more than that, to have an educated opinion about the architecture. Most tourists who play it only once or twice can't begin to understand it - it's simply that different from every other course you'll ever experience. I think that holds true for GolfClubAtlas types as well...until you instinctively know where all of the bunkers are and how to use the slopes to attack and play away from different hole locations, it's really a mystery. You can still love TOC for its history and lore and mystique, but even I hesitate to rank it in lists like this because it's so unique, and I've played it 25-30 times.

Glad to see some love for Dunbar in this thread, too. You guys should look me up when you're next in my particular corner of East Lothian!

Cheers,
Darren

[BCrosby]

Darren -


Delighted to see your post. Agreed about TOC and will get in touch next time I'm in Dunbar.


I hope all is well. It's been too long.


Bob

[Thomas Dai]

.......we see TOC too much and that as a consequence it begins to lose its allure.

Go along with you Niall. The Open seemingly every 5 years. The Dunhill Cup every year. Special, unique place for sure but 'specialness' and 'uniqueness' can indeed lose allure with excess familiarity.
atb

[Niall C]

Darren,


Tom said something similar about needing to play the Old Course more than once, but really TOC is hardly unique in that respect. I think you can say that about most links to a greater or lesser extent. Anywhere where the course is fast and firm and has undulation will take a bit of learning.


Niall

[Marty Bonnar]

My current 'field research' is confirming the fact that most American golfers prefer Kingsbarns to The Old Course.


F.

[JWinick]

It's hard not to observe the almost fanatical defense of the Old Course as a Open Championship (every five years) and Dunhill (every year) and wonder what the defenders are afraid of?  Virtually all actors, politicians, product makers, etc., worry about over-exposure and sometimes benefit from disappearing for a while.   Its the same reason a Jack Nicholson has never done television, for example.


The mere mention that the Old Course should host the Open Championship every 10 years is treated like an attack on one's own child.   How can one possibly say such a thing?   The horror, the horror!   Or, perhaps some people are trying to curry favor with Tom Doak, the R & A, or others.   


The fact is that the Open Championship is not spread around enough, and its just going to Ireland for the first time in decades (maybe longer).   Great courses like Muirfield and Turnberry are not technically in the rota anymore.    Unfortunately, there is only one a year.   And the reality is the pros just obliterate the golf course.   To say that resistance to par is not relevant is a strange position to take.  We are only talking about the Old Course as an Open Championship site, and not suggesting its unworthy because its easier than others.   


It's ok, guys, the Old Course is not being shut down anytime soon.

[BCrosby]

Strange thread.


Is the suggestion that TOC would be better respected if we saw it less?


Or is the complaint something along the lines of, "Oh no, you mean we have to listen to Mozart's 41st yet again?"


The first is incoherent. The second I simply don't understand.


Marty -


I recall that a number of people predicted here that Americans would, on balance, prefer Kingsbarns to TOC.


Bob

[Sean_A]

It's hard not to observe the almost fanatical defense of the Old Course as a Open Championship (every five years) and Dunhill (every year) and wonder what the defenders are afraid of?  Virtually all actors, politicians, product makers, etc., worry about over-exposure and sometimes benefit from disappearing for a while.   Its the same reason a Jack Nicholson has never done television, for example.


The mere mention that the Old Course should host the Open Championship every 10 years is treated like an attack on one's own child.   How can one possibly say such a thing?   The horror, the horror!   Or, perhaps some people are trying to curry favor with Tom Doak, the R & A, or others.   


The fact is that the Open Championship is not spread around enough, and its just going to Ireland for the first time in decades (maybe longer).   Great courses like Muirfield and Turnberry are not technically in the rota anymore.    Unfortunately, there is only one a year.   And the reality is the pros just obliterate the golf course.   To say that resistance to par is not relevant is a strange position to take.  We are only talking about the Old Course as an Open Championship site, and not suggesting its unworthy because its easier than others.   


It's ok, guys, the Old Course is not being shut down anytime soon.

J

Again, my argument is the odds are that an Open at TOC will be more entertaining than any other venue...and the Open is only once a year...so why not use TOC more often than the other venues? I certainly don't feel I have too much exposure to TOC.  I don't mind if other venues are brought into the rota, the more the merrier.  I feel no compunction that courses should be used within a certain time period so why not have 12 courses in the rota?  But for me, its all about entertainment value, I don't care about the "test" etc etc.  Golf exists on tv to entertain.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Jon


That's possibly the first time that Tom Doak and the R&A have been grouped together. With regards the Open rota, it doesn't actually exist so the likes of Muirfield, Turnberry etc were never really on it anyway.


Niall