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Mike_Young

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2017, 08:34:49 PM »
I think we might be overthinking things, here.
Of course we evaluate the holes on the way to evaluating the course. Some bias their ratings towards great holes, some bias towards a continuity of aesthetic.
That's about it, isn't it?
I was never fond of Pebble Beach, whist acknowledging the great holes...  I prefer Kingston Heath (swayed somewhat by the clubhouse ambience). So I suppose I'm in the second group.

Lloyd,
That sort of sums me up....I can't think that hard....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2017, 08:55:09 PM »
Tom - you mentioned something the other day about a fairway feature at the Loop that wasn't done/didn't come into existence 'intentionally' but more so as a function of how the tees needed to be placed in a 'reversible' context. I think you liked the result very much. Now, while I understand that the moment you intend to do the unintentional it becomes intentional (or at least loses some of its magic), I do think a full-fledged focus on minimalism's founding principles might still be of help here, i.e. if one could so honour the natural site and accept it wholeheartedly for exactly what it is (and for what it isn't), I'd imagine that situations would arise quite frequently where the 'unintended' emerged and needed only to be 'tweaked' (via skilled open-mindedness) in order to serve a (surprisingly) successful purpose.
Peter

Here's a jazz story I just heard from pianist Herbie Hancock. As a young musician, he'd won a coveted spot in Miles Davis' mid 60s quintet. He'd been with Davis for a few months and playing well when one night, accompanying a beautiful Davis solo on "So What", Hancock played the wrong chord. And it wasn't just a little mistake or a slightly wrong chord: in Hancock's mind, it was so wrong that he actually - for the first and only time in his life - stopped playing and brought his hands to his face in horror. And then, he said, he listened in shocked wonder as Davis, after a pause that lasted barely a second, played just 3 stark simple beautiful notes that had the effect of resolving Hancock's "wrong chord" and making it right; just like that, the wrong chord wasn't a mistake anymore, and in fact wasn't ever wrong. Later, Hancock realized that two factors/elements had been at work there: 1 - Yes, Davis was a master musician with a great sense of harmony, and so technically was able to hear and play exactly the right 3 notes; but 2, and more importantly, Davis could do that because he truly believed that there were *no* wrong notes, i.e. that there was no such things as 'mistakes'. In Davis' mind, there was only "what happens"...and then what you do *next*.     

All of which is to say: I don't know what it's like to be a master craftsman, but I imagine that at some point in their successful careers they will be called to loosen their grip on two of the elements/traits that garnered them that status in the first plaice, i.e. a (healthy) need to control and an (understandable) fear of making mistakes/failing.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 09:11:27 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Mike_Young

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2017, 10:06:46 PM »
Tom - you mentioned something the other day about a fairway feature at the Loop that wasn't done/didn't come into existence 'intentionally' but more so as a function of how the tees needed to be placed in a 'reversible' context. I think you liked the result very much. Now, while I understand that the moment you intend to do the unintentional it becomes intentional (or at least loses some of its magic), I do think a full-fledged focus on minimalism's founding principles might still be of help here, i.e. if one could so honour the natural site and accept it wholeheartedly for exactly what it is (and for what it isn't), I'd imagine that situations would arise quite frequently where the 'unintended' emerged and needed only to be 'tweaked' (via skilled open-mindedness) in order to serve a (surprisingly) successful purpose.
Peter

Here's a jazz story I just heard from pianist Herbie Hancock. As a young musician, he'd won a coveted spot in Miles Davis' mid 60s quintet. He'd been with Davis for a few months and playing well when one night, accompanying a beautiful Davis solo on "So What", Hancock played the wrong chord. And it wasn't just a little mistake or a slightly wrong chord: in Hancock's mind, it was so wrong that he actually - for the first and only time in his life - stopped playing and brought his hands to his face in horror. And then, he said, he listened in shocked wonder as Davis, after a pause that lasted barely a second, played just 3 stark simple beautiful notes that had the effect of resolving Hancock's "wrong chord" and making it right; just like that, the wrong chord wasn't a mistake anymore, and in fact wasn't ever wrong. Later, Hancock realized that two factors/elements had been at work there: 1 - Yes, Davis was a master musician with a great sense of harmony, and so technically was able to hear and play exactly the right 3 notes; but 2, and more importantly, Davis could do that because he truly believed that there were *no* wrong notes, i.e. that there was no such things as 'mistakes'. In Davis' mind, there was only "what happens"...and then what you do *next*.     

All of which is to say: I don't know what it's like to be a master craftsman, but I imagine that at some point in their successful careers they will be called to loosen their grip on two of the elements/traits that garnered them that status in the first plaice, i.e. a (healthy) need to control and an (understandable) fear of making mistakes/failing.

Peter,
Nice.
I would consider your writing to be in the master craftsman class.  While I am in no way a writer, what you describe here is close to what I have always wanted to say about strategy. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2017, 10:14:14 PM »
Thank you, Mike, that's kind of you to say. But the truth is, all the interesting ideas in that post come from Herbie Hancock. I was just *agreeing* with him!
Peter
PS - I think I understand what you mean about the post being relevant to strategy - but if you ever feel like it that would an excellent thread for you to start.

Mike_Young

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2017, 10:22:30 PM »
Peter,
You put it in the proper words.

My brain doesn't work that way. 

All I'm trying to say is that strategy is different for each golfer and almost needs to be defined in reverse.  An architect creates  a hole's strategy as a songwriter does a song and then some golfer tees it up and there is no telling which way various strategies will evolve as he plays the hole.  And all could work...same as you mentioned with a wrong chord...
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 11:03:22 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

James Brown

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2017, 10:56:53 PM »
I remember rounds, not holes. 

Ian_L

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2017, 11:56:27 PM »

Generally, though, I've always been one to analyze golf holes first, and recommend based on those.  My reasoning has been that it's much rarer to find a course where all the pieces are arranged beautifully into a whole, than to find a great hole or two on an otherwise average course.  And I might learn something from the one great hole, whereas I doubt I'll learn something new from the "course as a whole".


But, maybe I'm totally wrong about that last assumption.  I've certainly been to some places recently [from the Himalayan G.C. to Shek O] where the course-as-a-whole was much more interesting than the sum of its parts, because it defied convention in some way or another.  So I'm curious where Mike is going with that ... or whether anyone else can cite examples of how the course-as-a-whole was instructive to them.


I think certain aspects of course routing fall in the "course-as-a-whole" category of evaluation. An obvious goal in a routing is to maximize the number of great individual holes in an order that isn't offensive (a par 42-30-72, for example).  However, a great routing will take the golfer on a good tour of the property and maintain his or her interest. Your routing at Pacific Dunes is a good example, where I believe you intentionally spread the ocean holes across multiple parts of the routing. Had holes 4, 10, 11, and 13 been played consecutively (impossible, but for the sake of example), you could argue that the course would not be quite as good.


Most of us have probably played a course with two nines routed through entirely different environments (Northstar in North Lake Tahoe is the most extreme example I have played, with the front nine wide open in a meadow and the back nine cramped between tall pines). In my limited golf travels, I haven't found a course like this that I have really liked, although you could argue that these sites are typically less than ideal, and I might still not like them if the routing weren't so black-and-white.


On another note, I think the visual merits of a course's design are typically evaluated on a course as a whole, rather than hole by hole. Pot bunkers might look good one one hole while exposed sand looks good on the next, but if there is no consistent style whatsoever throughout the course, the design doesn't have much of an "identity".  There is something to be said for gaining an appreciation for the architect's artistic style throughout the round, and it's hard to do that if it changes from hole to hole.


Ian

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2017, 01:37:11 AM »

Tom,


in another thread I mentioned Alwoodley in Leeds for a similar reason. Whilst it is on an awkward shaped piece of land that is nothing special and has no outstanding holes (pick of the bunch is probably the fifth) all the holes are good to very good so no dummies in there. However, it genius lies in the great routing, excellent rhythm and the fact that the course is better than the sum of its parts. Alwoodley is the only course I have played that manages to do this though doubtless there are others.


Jon

Sean_A

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2017, 03:52:26 AM »
Again, strange topic.  Doesn't there need to be great holes for the course to be great? I can't see how the whole being better than the parts somehow makes a course great from solid material.  I can buy into the whole being better than the parts when we consider weak holes.  Just as I prize great holes, I despise weak holes...mainly because I don't understand why weak holes exist unless the land is so severe that the archie simply has to take his lumps and move on. But not having weak holes does not a great course make. That said, I often appreciate courses very much even though I don't think they are great. Greatness is over-rated.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2017, 04:20:19 AM »
Sometimes you'll play a course and, while it may have taken you the usual time on the clock to play 18-holes, it'll feel like you've just whizzed around in no time at all.
Time will somehow, almost magically, have passed quickly. The course somehow just 'flows'. You putt out on the last and want to go straight back to the 1st. No particular high or low holes, just nice-n-consistant all the way around.
Dooks would be an example that comes easily to mind.
atb
« Last Edit: June 02, 2017, 04:29:03 AM by Thomas Dai »

Bill Raffo

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2017, 08:24:09 AM »
Great topic. For me, what differentiates a truly great golf course, from a mere mortal golf course, is how the whole of the 18 relate to each other, with similar themes, looks and a consistent degree of difficulty, hole to hole, throughout the course. 
Shinnecock Hills is a fantastic example.  Similar themes of false fronts, great speed slots, deep bunkering and fast playing conditions and a consistent topography, throughout.  The consistency of difficulty is remarkably true. There are easier holes but none so easy you let your guard down but none, save for the par three 11th, where you don't feel par is a fair and gettable with good, solid play. 
Compare that to NGL next door where pure golf gives way to quirkiness and almost "smirky,sense of humor" design characteristics. The degree of difficulty of the holes varies, widely, luck plays a much bigger role.
Similar neighbor example is Muirfield and North Berwick.  It's almost like if the courses were movies, Muirfield would be a drama and North Berwick would be a comedy.  Both have such stature in the game, yet they are so different. I wouldn't consider going there and not playing both, if given the opportunity to play one twice. But in the end, I prefer the drama and rate courses higher, in my mind, who balance the hard/not too hard in a consistent, recognizable, unique to that course, sort of way. At Muirfield, it's the consistent demand off the tee, the genius bunker placement waiting to punish any mistake but there is a bit of width and a way to shoot a low score if you strike it well.  And strokes aren't taken from you due to excessively difficult greens.  That's the worst design element of all, imo. 
It's fine if its at Augusta where you can hit it anywhere, almost and still get around.  The opposite is Bethpage Black where the greens are maybe the easiest of any rated course in the world and they should be.  The challenge, tee to green is remarkably consistent as are the greens...great course.  What I can't stand, more than anything in golf design, is hard tee to green holes with difficult, sectioned green complexes.  There just aren't enough scratch players out there, capable of throwing the darts, hole after hole, to warrant building them.
So, for me, to build a really great course...my primary theme would be to achieve a test that is stern, hole to hole, with no let up but not have any holes that cross the line into too difficult.  Fair green complexes.  My list of fun features I would look to incorporate, to give the identity to the course would be, speed slots (!!!!). Most fun feature in golf, imo.  I would build as many as six into the course, three would be pretty easy with tougher green complexes and the other three would be angled, requiring a shaped shot with absolute death for the missed shot, either into bunkering or tall grass.  If executed, the birdie becomes more likely with a short, wedge shot in.
Obvious and viewable false fronts.  Another really fun design characteristic. I'd have six or seven of them, all perched in a way that the player really sees the shot, the danger and when he comes up short, the sight of the ball rolling back and the visual of the next shot, the dreaded, pinched 35 yard wedge. It's such a much more fun way to take away strokes around a green vs. greens that have positions where two puts are not achievable or even a traditional bunker shot.
And I'd move dirt to achieve it.  I'd rather have some manufactured elements that make the course more fun vs. being stuck with the limitations of the land as it is. Obviously, the goal is to make it look as natural as possible but those magical sights where it all falls into place are just too few and far between.


Don Jordan

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2017, 08:49:50 AM »
The music analogy is what I think of in regards to this question. Each hole is a single, the whole course the album. A single needs to stand out and be memorable, an album needs to be paced and take you through a theme.

A course comprised of 18 great individual holes might not make a great course if they are all super tough, all half shot holes etc. A great course probably needs some blander holes (they still should be good holes) to give the golfer a rest and a chance to regather.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2017, 09:35:29 AM »

And the golf course examples might be Bears Best, Tour 18, etc. Are any of the copycat courses of best holes considered great?


What about Raynor copycatting Mac and himself over and over and over again?  Can the same holes on 20 consecutive courses be called great?  Seems they can, and why not?  A good hole in NYC is a good hole in Chicago, providing its placed on the land well.  And in a neat sequence.......


So, maybe only the good concepts transfer, and execution on a hole by hole basis is required to make a great hole.  And whatever else goes into liking a golf course has to be present, like topo, views, ambiance, etc.  I think some Raynor courses get good reviews because they are so unique to what we see from every other architect.



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Hancock

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2017, 09:39:28 AM »
The music analogy is what I think of in regards to this question. Each hole is a single, the whole course the album. A single needs to stand out and be memorable, an album needs to be paced and take you through a theme.

A course comprised of 18 great individual holes might not make a great course if they are all super tough, all half shot holes etc. A great course probably needs some blander holes (they still should be good holes) to give the golfer a rest and a chance to regather.


To add to your good comments, I've always despised "Greatest Hits" albums, regardless of the artist. That is probably a fuction of familiarity moreso than the composition of the music. In fact, almost anything that makes it to "hit" status on FM radio nowadays is likely to not be familiar to me.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2017, 10:40:40 AM »
Part of appreciating the course is the entire experience. I recently played Cascata outside Las Vegas. The course had some very good holes and some average holes. I came away from playing the course loving it. WHen I sat down and went through the holes I was amazed that there weren't many truly memorable holes. The conditioning, setting, the interesting greens, and the fact that I shot 75 all led me to love the experience. I'd go back in a heartbeat even though there probably are some better courses in the area.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mike Hendren

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2017, 12:48:42 PM »
It is rare for me to not remember individual holes after a single play of a good to great golf course.  The exceptions likely speak to the dynamic you're discussing.  Walton Heath Old immediately comes to mind, as does Ballyneal. 
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Kalen Braley

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2017, 01:17:15 PM »
It is rare for me to not remember individual holes after a single play of a good to great golf course.  The exceptions likely speak to the dynamic you're discussing.  Walton Heath Old immediately comes to mind, as does Ballyneal.


Micheal,


I'm curious.  After playing Ballyneal... holes like 7 and 8 didn't stick out to you?  Its been years since I played it and can still recall most holes very vividly...

Peter Flory

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2017, 02:13:55 PM »
It's like enjoying albums more than playlists stacked with hit songs.  A golf course is like an album.  The order is important.  The dynamics are important.  The genre, etc. 

Peter Pallotta

Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2017, 02:53:09 PM »
Sean - I may be wrong but I think the question/issue is this:
since choices may sometimes have to be made between, say, the most efficient/flowing routing on the one hand and the 18 best possible golf holes on the other, are there any non-golf-hole-specific features and qualities in a golf course that mitigate/balance out for you the architect's choice to forego 1 or 2 potentially very cool golf holes for the sake of the course as a whole?; or, instead, does nothing ever outweigh for you the value of having absolutely as many stand-out holes as possible?

Adam Uttley

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2017, 03:11:06 PM »

First real post as I have lurked for a couple of years, but this thread really resonated with me.  Go easy on me, I'm no archie or writer.......


There are always exceptions to the rule but I tend to find that whether I remember the courses or the holes depends on the visuals of a hole rather than how it plays.  This can be by either having good elevation changes or topography (Sunningdale Old 10th or the 5th Prestwick would both be examples); having good visual contrast such as bunkering within it (Kingston Heath 15th, Pasatiempo 18th); or by the hole contrasting with the others around it or being so unusual (Brancaster 8th).  Each example provides a visual stamp on my mind.  The ocean holes at Pebble or Kingsbarns are also a great example and I think it is why par 3s are, in general, more memorable for me than 4s or 5s.


I tend to enjoy and remember courses as a whole in a different way; it is more of an emotional journey.  Often you can't see what's in front of you very well, you need to think well and plot your way around.  Your head is deep in thought (or the course guide) as you play the hole and at the end of a stretch of holes or the round you gain the appreciation of what you've just experienced and how good it has been. There isn't necessarily a visual imprint to go with it so I tend to remember how I felt about the course and that stays with me.  Oddly the more the course flows and doesn't have visually standout holes, the more I stay in the journey rather than looking at the scenery.  Awkward holes or stretches of holes tend to snap me out of this flow.  Good examples are Kingston Heath and Walton Heath Old, as others have given.  I'd also add somewhere like Woodhall Spa into the mix.  I agree with others that part of this can be the journey to the course itself with the anticipation building - Cape Kidnappers and Cape Wickham are both examples of this.  I'd love to play these courses again and again, whereas somewhere like Pebble I can take it or leave it.


Finally I think there are courses that somehow manage both that are truly special.  Turnberry did this for me this year with 9 & 10 the visually standout holes and the rest an amazing journey.  Sunningdale Old does it with the 5th and 10th.


All in all great holes and great routings without great holes both provide memorable experiences for the golfer but for me personally it is the course rather than the individual holes that make me want to return again and again, even if that means missing out on a few outstanding holes along the way.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2017, 06:48:59 PM »

 I'd also add somewhere like Woodhall Spa into the mix.


Hi Adam:


Woodhall Spa is a very good example.  There are lots of very good holes, but maybe none that stand out as the obvious best of the bunch.  But the bunkering and the heather and the mood of it is just enough different than anywhere else to make the place memorable, even if it's hard to put your finger on why [other than, "deep bunkers" which of course many other courses have].


But, most of the responses I've heard suggest that this is all you need to succeed ... a bunch of good holes with a dash of hard-to-define "character" thrown in.


I've always been a big fan of any feature that gives a course a character of its own, but it bothers me slightly to think that's all there is to it.

Ira Fishman

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2017, 08:04:07 PM »
Tom,


I would not be bothered at all. To use a different artistic analogy, Casablanca is one great scene/hole after another while An American in Paris flows wonderfully without any single great scene/hole. Both are memorable and enjoyable but just in very different ways.


Ira

Sean_A

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2017, 08:30:34 PM »
Sean - I may be wrong but I think the question/issue is this:
since choices may sometimes have to be made between, say, the most efficient/flowing routing on the one hand and the 18 best possible golf holes on the other, are there any non-golf-hole-specific features and qualities in a golf course that mitigate/balance out for you the architect's choice to forego 1 or 2 potentially very cool golf holes for the sake of the course as a whole?; or, instead, does nothing ever outweigh for you the value of having absolutely as many stand-out holes as possible?

Pietro

When you put it that way, then no, for me having the absolute best 18 holes possible to the exclusion of all other factors is not something I look for in a design.  The walk is quite important to me, enough so that I don't mind a few lesser holes for the sake of a better walk.  Or put another way, if I am going to be forced to walk extra, I better be getting something special and even then, I don't want this done more than a few times.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Willie_Dow

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2017, 08:35:39 PM »
Back to a previous discussion regarding this subject, I agreed with Gil Hanse that the best way to evaluate or "appreciate" a course is to remember every hole after you have played it for the first time.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2017, 09:32:33 PM »
Willie:


Sure, but unfortunately, crappy holes are sometimes memorable, too.

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