[goldj]

Joe Lee doesn't get much airtime on this board, possibly because so many of the posters here consider his work to  be representative of the so-called "dark ages" in American golf course architecture - too much water, flashed bunkers, not enough strategy.    That said, he designed a great number of courses and many of them are still played today. 


I'm most interested in his green and bunker styles.  Can anyone point out to me courses which retain the original Joe Lee  visual and playing characteristics.  I've been through Ron Whitten's books but, since it was written, many of the courses mentioned have been renovated and much of the Lee style removed. I'm particularly interested in greens and bunker styles. 


Bent Pine, a course in Vero Beach which I have not seen, would seem to fall into that group.  High Ridge and Turtle Creek, both of which I have seen, would not. 

[Adam_Messix]

I think Lanier Golf Club's greens and surrounds are pretty untouched Lee but the guys in Atlanta could better tell.  Bent Pine is a good example as is Orange Tree in Orlando.  The other one that pops in my head is Banyan in West Palm Beach.  High Ridge and The Falls have had work done to them by Kipp Schulties. 

[Gene Greco]

Yes, Orange Tree in Orlando
Also, Island Dunes on Hutchinson Island in Jensen Beach, an executive course, is virtually unchanged since it was built in 1988.

[Tim Gavrich]

Being that Joe Lee was a protégé of Dick Wilson's, I've found it a little odd that the Lee courses I've played have seemed to have somewhat less vigor, less vitality, than the Wilson courses I've played and seen. I quite like both Bent Pine and Banyan, but they just seem to be lacking something relative to the likes of, say, Pine Tree and Callaway Gardens. Was there some faculty, re GCA, that Wilson had but Lee lacked?

[goldj]

Tim,


You raise a very interesting point.  I never met Joe but there are some on this board, especially Joe Jemsek, who knew Joe and can provide a more thoughtful response. 


That said, let me venture a guess.  My sense is that Gentleman Joe Lee was more "client friendly" and that many of his clients, especially the private clients building standalone clubs and the those who were making his courses the centerpiece of housing developments, asked him not to make the courses overly penal.  I'm most familiar with Banyan in West Palm.  It's long on strategy and options yet, despite numerous water hazards, virtually always provides players an opportunity to either play around it or minimize the length of a forced carry.  There aren't too many unbastardized Dick Wilson courses around these days but I never get the same feeling when I play one.  At so many of those courses, you either hit the shot or you're in some sort of trouble. 

[Kyle Harris]

From what I've seen of Banyan on the ground as compared to a Joe Lee routing, not much is left there in terms of bunker placement and presentation.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I think Lanier Golf Club's greens and surrounds are pretty untouched Lee but the guys in Atlanta could better tell.  Bent Pine is a good example as is Orange Tree in Orlando.  The other one that pops in my head is Banyan in West Palm Beach.  High Ridge and The Falls have had work done to them by Kipp Schulties.

Banyon has been reworked by Kipp, also. The bunkering is more intended to look like Lee, though.

[Richard Hetzel]

I would bet that Lee's Indian Mound on Jekyll Island is pretty darn close to the original. His Pine Lakes course there has been changed/renovated and I know the bunkers were changed. The one course I don't have any pictures of is Indian Mound, the least inspiring of all the courses on Jekyll Island. It has somewhat large, uninspired shallow bunkers.

[Mitch Hantman]

Joe Lee did not have a huge ego, and was happy to give the owner what he asked for.  Many south Florida courses have been subsequently redesigned, so they have lost their original bunker style.  Those that retain their Joe Lee bunker style, like Banyan GC, had nothing to do with housing, as it is a stand alone course. 


Although I have not seen San Lorenzo in Portugal, they are quite proud of Joe's work there, so they might have better examples of his original design.  Joe Lee himself thought this was his best design of his career, which is a strong statement from a modest man.  His greens were commonly designed with three directions of water drainage, and were quite varied in shape.  They have modern contours, none of the little rumples and rolls of old time greens.   

[goldj]

Banyan has retained Kipp Schulties to help it with a range and short game area.  The work that Tony Nysse refers to above was done under the aegis of John Sanford and in the style of Joe Lee. 

[Tom Ferrell]

Okefenokee GC, outside of Waycross, GA, removed a number of bunkers in the pursuit of maintenance cost savings.  Upon opening there were more than 100 bunkers.  The ones that remain, however, are relatively well preserved.  Fronting bunkers that have significant lips and shallow side and back bunkers that I always loved. Large greens with contour and interest. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Banyan has retained Kipp Schulties to help it with a range and short game area.  The work that Tony Nysse refers to above was done under the aegis of John Sanford and in the style of Joe Lee.

You are correct. I think that Banyon is in talks of a long range/full renovation with KS, also. I think that the current bunkers look very much like Lee. Similar to Pine Tree in the late 1990's

[SL_Solow]

The Hamlet in Delray was pretty faithful although it was bought by Seagate who has done some work (lengthening etc) and I haven't played since the changes.

[Anthony_Nysse]

The Hamlet in Delray was pretty faithful although it was bought by Seagate who has done some work (lengthening etc) and I haven't played since the changes.

Gene Bates completely redid it a few years back.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I don't think anyone has redone Indian Hills in Marietta, GA much.  We did a master plan, and the late Bob Cupp did one a few years back, but from the aerial photos, don't see much change.


Looks like they softened the bunker shapes in house to ease maintenance, perhaps, or Joe's bunkers had more 3D with more limited shape than they look at ground level.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Lets not forget Gator Creek in Sarasota.

[Chris_Blakely]

Greystone Golf Course in White Hall, Maryland is a Joe Lee course built in 1997.  Not sure how involved he was at that time, but I do not believe it has been altered much.  Originally was meant to be a private country club, that went under and was purchased by Baltimore County.  I believe Joe Baush has a photo tour.


http://www.golfadvisor.com/courses/7027-greystone-golf-course/#slide-course-21525


http://www.baltimoregolfing.com/course/greystone

[goldj]

This has been quite instructive and i appreciate everyone who has responded.


Let me take this another step and ask if anyone can point me in the direction of renovations or restorations of Joe Lee courses which have been faithful to Lee's original intent.  I have seen any number where this hasn't been done so I'm interested in those that are.  I've taken a quick look at the website of the Hamlet and it looks like something that Joe Lee might have done.

[Mitch Hantman]

Banyan GC is your best bet for Lee bunkers in south Florida.  John Sanford kept most of his bunker shapes intact.

[Adam_Messix]

Beau Chene outside of New Orleans is 36 holes of Joe Lee that has been tinkered with little from my sources. 


Good catch on San Lorenzo.  The back nine is very much in his style and most of front is too except for the holes near the water.

[Brett Morris]

Delaire CC in Delray Beach was Joe Lee.  We rebuilt the Brown 9 in 1995 but not sure whether it has been altered since then.

[Paul Jones]

Squirrel Run in New Iberia and was one of the later ones that Joe Lee designed in his career. A few holes on the front were rerouted, but outside that, the original 18 still exist as he designed.

[Mitch Hantman]

Delaire has been totally redesigned by Kipp Schulties.

[Matthew Rose]

The original three Disney World courses are all his, aren't they? But I've got not idea if anything has been done to them.


I know the old International GC got changed quite a bit and became something else.


It's been 20+ years since I've played any of those so they may all be totally different these days.

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