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Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2003, 12:50:13 PM »
Brad, it seems the apples did not fall far from the tree, nor did he listen to a great piece of wisdom for any profession including golf architecture.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2003, 01:27:46 PM »
I think it was an HHW article in a 1966-7 Golf Digest issue (possibly an adaptation of his New Yorker articles?) discussing architecture and strategy that came out just as I became enamored with golf and golf architecture.

I recall a bit of the article, specifically praising Ross chipping areas in place of bunker left bunker right, etc.  In another section an illustration and text noted that "to the purist, a single bunker near the green can set the strategy" or something close.  The illustration was of a dogleg, and the bunker was on the front, inside of the corner side of the green, which he explained was enough to make a thinking player go to the outside of the dogleg.

Not long thereafter, there was also an article by Gary Player in GD on what makes good golf design.  I recall him extolling the virtues of reachable par 5's and proposing that each course ought to have at least one reachable by everyone, one a true shot par 5, and two "tweeners" with different challenges that could be reached by only longer hitters.  

Are my memories correct, and does anyone have a copy of that/those articles they could scan and post?  It would be a trip down memory lane for me.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2003, 02:41:42 PM »
I guess it is coming across that this man had a significant impact on a lot of lives. I am going to have a visit with my daughter tonight about how character pays dividends over and over again.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2003, 03:39:44 PM »
This is a link to an article Lorne Rubenstein did on HWW in 1998 for Links Magazine:

http://services.golfweb.com/linksmagazine/9805/heroes.html

I also seem recall there was an article on HWW in either the USGA Journal or Golf World about 6-12 months ago. Maybe someone can find it and offer a link to it.

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2008, 04:41:01 AM »
Enjoyable reading.

I have no doubt that Mr. Wind was the ultimate gentleman, as professed by Brad Klein, but he did write at least a couple pretty direct criticisms of modern golf architecture. In the World Atlas of Golf, and in the reprint of Mackenzie's golf architecture.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2008, 08:36:03 AM »
I missed this thread from back in the day. Thanks for pulling it up.

I always thought that the fact of the publication of the World Atlas of Golf was an implied criticism of modern gca. People should reread HWW's introduction which was, as I recall, critical of the state of gca at the time. One of the main points of the book was to recall to golfers how good the classic courses were vs. the new monster stuff being built at the time.

All done quite politely of course. But it was the book that got me interesting in this god forsaken topic.

Bob

 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 09:54:43 AM by BCrosby »

Clyde Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2008, 08:44:21 AM »
 Brad Klein wrote...
As for his views on RTJ, HWW had concerns about business and commercialization. At the 1988 U.S. Open at The Country Club, where Rees Jones enjoyed his public "coming out" party as a nationally respected architect and restorationist, Herb took Rees aside and told him "I hope you don't make your father's mistake and take on too many projects."
[/quote]

HWW's comment to Rees is interesting in that he said the same thing to me when I met him at Augusta in the late 1980's. I guess he had strong feelings in regards to mass producing golf courses.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 08:46:20 AM by Clyde Johnston »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2008, 09:00:12 AM »
Just wanted to point out that the New Yorker sells a detachable hard drive - I guess that's what you call it - that contains the entire contents of the magazine with a searchable database.  You can enter "Herbert Warren Wind" and "golf" in the search function and bring up all his articles in short order.  It is a great investment as it also contains ads and articles starting in the '20s, a great historical archive.

I'll find and post a link for anyone interested.

Ray Richard

Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2008, 09:08:12 AM »
I can still see him standing next to the 2nd green at Thorny Lea Golf Course, Brockton, Ma. during a 1960's tournament. My father was was also in the word business and he said "come with me, I am going to introduce you to the best golf writer in the world." Mr. Wind spoke softly but carried plenty of charisma with his three-piece suit and tie on that hot June day.

Andrew Mitchell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2008, 09:33:45 AM »
A great thread, and a timely one too as I am part way through HWW's "Following Through" a collection of his writings for The New Yorker.  One of the most enjoyable golf books I have ever read.
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2008, 10:03:13 AM »
Here is the link to the New Yorker's portable hard drive archive:

http://tinyurl.com/2eq2kf

It's one of the best investments I've made.

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2008, 10:28:31 AM »
This is what Tom MacWood wrote in October of 2003:

"Based on his books and essays I get the impression Wind had a real interest in the subject--a thorough understanding of the history of golf architecture, of the great architects, of their best designs and of their theories. He was an admirer of MacKenzie, Tillinghast, Macdonald, Thompson, and others.

But when it came to contemporary design he remained pretty quiet--other than championing RTJ. Writing that favorable profile in the New Yorker, complementing his redesign work at Oakland Hills, Baltusrol, Winged Foot and ANGC (RTJ also contributed a chapter on gca in Wind’s first book and was praised in Wind’s second book). He, along with Bobby Jones, basically made Jones the huge name he became, which allowed him to dominate and shape modern golf architecture. 

Although he wasn’t a critic in the 50’s and 60’s, by the mid-70's, it appears to me, HWW was totally disgusted with modern golf architecture, and wrote of his disgust in several essays, including a speech to the ASGCA.

Was he indirectly responsible for golf architecture’s sorry state…did he feel a certain responsibility? And did his criticism in the mid-70’s have any effect on golf architecture?"




I think those last two questions are extremely important and I can't see this thread has really tried to answer them. Most of the posts, which are really good by the way on Wind himself, don't exactly deal with Tom MacWood's two questions. I think a site like this needs to try to take a very careful look at that era in architecture---eg early 1950s probably into the 1980s to try to determine how it was looked at by golfers and even the profession generally.

Was it looked at during that time by even Wind as a time when golf architecture was going through what Tom MacWood labeled in 2003 'a sorry state'?

That is not my recollection at all and I certainly am old enough to remember the whole thing pretty well. Frankly, I remember most all the golfers I knew about thinking it was a pretty exciting time in golf architecture. Everything was bigger and longer and they looked at that as a pretty cool change and challenge.

I think it's important to get the feeling at that time right and accurate in its own historic context. To come to the assumption and the conclusion in 2003 that it was looked at in its own era as a time of a sorry state in golf and architecture I think is simply historically inaccurate.

But then, of course, one needs to follow that style in American inspired architecture to it's historic conclusion which is pretty hard to miss, at this point. For that I think one needs to look very carefully at the impact Pete Dye had near the end of that RTJ/Wilson super-long course, super large scale era. Pete Dye's own remarks about it as he traveled down the road on his way to Hilton Head is hugely indicative of the state of things then and also where it was about to go next. And that's the part I really do remember best----the interest and response to some of what young Pete Dye was beginning to do. That, my friends, to most of the most knowledgeable people in golf and architecture at that time was the beginning of a sea-change and I think I can tell you almost precisely why the people of that time thought so. Frankly, I can still hear them and what they said.

I think you'll be pretty amazed to hear what they said and what they thought about what they all perceived was coming off the palatte of Pete Dye.

Another interesting thing about the beginning of the Dye era is perhaps something Herbert Warren Wind thought about RTJ in the end and told his son----eg the danger of super high production golf architecture.

I have no idea how many golf courses Pete Dye has done at this point but I can tell you back then and through most of his career that is not the way those knowledgeable in golf and architecture looked at Pete Dye. If he was high production it certainly didn't seem like it and he most certainly never seemed to promote such a thing as RTJ very clearly did!

I mean seriously, can you believe it---one of the primary selling points of an architect like RTJ and even Tom Fazio in the next leg of the era was the more courses an architect does the better that must mean he is? I'd say at least half the golfers in this world still believe that to be true. That's how effective and impactful the likes of RTJ was on one aspect of the perception of architecture.

In that way, I think Herbert Warren Wind did his part to warn of dangers in architecture and perhaps seriously influence what was to come next from the next really significant group of architects, many of which came up right through Dye's operation and through his influence.



« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 10:55:39 AM by TEPaul »

Rich Goodale

Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2008, 11:28:44 AM »
One thing I miss about Tom Macwood--at least he understood the difference between "affect" and "effect".....

tlavin

Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2008, 11:46:42 AM »
Let's just say that we'll likely never again see his equal.

Gerry B

Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2008, 11:59:18 PM »
I read in Oakmont's 100th anniversary book that  HWW's 1962  article in The New Yorker ,where he wrote that they were playing another US Open at "that ugly brute" Oakmont - was the main reason that the club started  the tree planting.


ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2008, 03:54:51 PM »
Here is the link to the New Yorker's portable hard drive archive:

http://tinyurl.com/2eq2kf

It's one of the best investments I've made.

Bill,
    Thanks for sharing the link.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2008, 10:22:35 PM »
Here is the link to the New Yorker's portable hard drive archive:

http://tinyurl.com/2eq2kf

It's one of the best investments I've made.

Bill,
    Thanks for sharing the link.
Ed, many happy hours cruising through the decades, and a lot of it HWW's essays.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2008, 10:30:19 PM »
Many a night have I enjoyed reading HWW's essays and have never regretted a single moment to do so. He and Darwin really have the ability to transport the reader and I'm grateful for the chance to read anything they've written.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2008, 10:49:51 PM »
One thing I miss about Tom Macwood--at least he understood the difference between "affect" and "effect".....

Do you think he could send me a brief overview?

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2008, 12:43:16 AM »
Great timing for this. Not only is The New Yorker available (also on a DVD set), but today, Sports Illustrated premiered an on-line archive of every issue from 1954-present, including every page of every issue from 1954-1995. That means all of HWW's SI coverage of golf, plus Dan Jenkins and the rest of the SI crew.
Go to SI.com and click on "SI vault" for the trove.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2008, 08:44:12 AM »
Great timing for this. Not only is The New Yorker available (also on a DVD set), but today, Sports Illustrated premiered an on-line archive of every issue from 1954-present, including every page of every issue from 1954-1995. That means all of HWW's SI coverage of golf, plus Dan Jenkins and the rest of the SI crew.
Go to SI.com and click on "SI vault" for the trove.

Love that picture of UCLA's Sidney Wicks that is on the front of the "Vault."  One of my favorite all time sports photos was Wicks stuffing Artis Gilmore in an NCAA game.  Maybe it was from 1969, I remember taping it to a kitchen cabinet in our first apartment in San Francisco.  I probably wouldn't be allowed to do that today.

Check it out on U Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMfmj2BeGFE
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 10:41:58 AM by Bill_McBride »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2008, 11:44:51 AM »
Great timing for this. Not only is The New Yorker available (also on a DVD set), but today, Sports Illustrated premiered an on-line archive of every issue from 1954-present, including every page of every issue from 1954-1995. That means all of HWW's SI coverage of golf, plus Dan Jenkins and the rest of the SI crew.
Go to SI.com and click on "SI vault" for the trove.

Thanks for the tip. Very cool.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Rich Goodale

Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2008, 02:23:53 PM »
One thing I miss about Tom Macwood--at least he understood the difference between "affect" and "effect".....

Do you think he could send me a brief overview?

Probably not, Jim.  "Brief" is not in Tom's bag.....

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2008, 03:12:58 PM »
"Because of these circumstances, it would be agreeable to report that the course itself presented an unusually good championship test. This, I am afraid, was not the case. Cherry Hills is simply too short a layout to examine the skills of our present-day professional and amateur stars. Time, moreover, has outmoded some of the strategic features of its topography. It does have four excellent short holes, and the last five holes, designed to be punishing, add up to a rough finishing stretch, but no less than seven of its par-4s play as a drive and a short pitch for the likes of Palmer and his colleagues.

At the same time, Cherry Hills did possess a certain degree of difficulty, for the greens were small, well guarded with traps and water hazards and, above all, hard to hold unless the approach shot was cleanly struck with plenty of spin. Early in the week the officials of the U.S. Golf Association were worried that the combination of the direct sun and the afternoon winds would bake out the greens to the point that they would become almost unplayable. But with judicious watering at night and plain good luck this extreme condition never came to pass. As it played, Cherry Hills did not require the full vocabulary of shotmaking, but it took accuracy and touch and unflagging concentration. Then it could be scored on."

June 27, 1960
DESTINY'S NEW FAVORITE
With six birdies in seven holes, Arnold Palmer came on with a rush to win the wildest of all U.S. Opens
Herbert Warren Wind

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2008, 03:21:02 PM »
One thing I miss about Tom Macwood--at least he understood the difference between "affect" and "effect".....

Do you think he could send me a brief overview?

Probably not, Jim.  "Brief" is not in Tom's bag.....

I'll just google it...