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Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Changing green surfaces without changing approaches
« on: May 15, 2017, 05:29:10 PM »
It has become quite common in North Carolina for courses to change the greens from bent grass to Champion Bermuda which is much firmer than bent grass.  The courses are not changing anything else so very often the greens require high shots over bunkers, etc. which bounce over the greens. (The very best players can spin the ball enough to deal with this but the vast majority cannot).  A course in the area which was known for outstanding bent grass greens is converting one of their courses against the wishes of the superintendent who told them that the greens and green complexes were designed with the understanding that the greens would hold approach shots. Any suggestions of how to deal with this? 

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing green surfaces without changing approaches
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2017, 09:01:43 PM »

It has become quite common in North Carolina for courses to change the greens from bent grass to Champion Bermuda which is much firmer than bent grass.  The courses are not changing anything else so very often the greens require high shots over bunkers, etc. which bounce over the greens. (The very best players can spin the ball enough to deal with this but the vast majority cannot).  A course in the area which was known for outstanding bent grass greens is converting one of their courses against the wishes of the superintendent who told them that the greens and green complexes were designed with the understanding that the greens would hold approach shots. Any suggestions of how to deal with this?



Give the Bermuda a couple years to develop some thatch--they'll soften up.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing green surfaces without changing approaches
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2017, 06:11:44 AM »

Agreed, give it a year or 2 and it will balance out. You could also use a 85/15 mix, which adds a little more organic material. We did that here.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing green surfaces without changing approaches
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2017, 08:40:53 AM »
Jerry,
With all due respect to the superintendent, I think it's the other way around.  Most players can't spin the shots that you are talking about no matter what the grass is; it's the better players who CAN spin the ball that have to change some of their shots.  For most of us, bermuda greens hold just fine because we're used to seeing our pitch shots roll out anyway.  Better players don't like the changeover in many cases because grain makes it MUCH harder to execute the hop-and-stop pitch from off the green with predictable results; sometimes the ball stops quickly, and sometimes it doesn't.  I think clubs that are either contemplating the change or have made the change typically get more push-back from the better players, not the lesser ones.

By far, I think the bigger issue in the changeover is the question of whether or not the greens need to be recontoured to account for typically higher green speeds and more grain.  I've seen places lose pin positions, in some cases dramatically so, by not recontouring.  The Farm in Dalton, GA used to have a pin sheet map with 6 positions when they had bent grass greens; they now have a pin sheet with 4 positions with Champion Bermuda greens that run at 12 on a daily basis.  That's an extreme example, but you get the idea.

The supers on the site might disagree with me, but I think many supers that have spent their career with bent grass greens are just not particularly interested in the paradigm shift involved in a conversion to bermuda.  It isn't that it's more or less work; it's that they have to relearn the magic tricks that supers are required to do to keep greens great year-round.  All of us do that in the workplace after a long period of time executing our job successfully.  The super that you mention may be pointing to something else rather than saying what is really going on.  Just my opinion...
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing green surfaces without changing approaches
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2017, 09:03:23 AM »
Jerry,
There will be another supt taking care of those greens soonIMHO.  It's difficult to go against what your supt wants and in most cases he has control of how the situation turns out.  And is probably looking in another direction if the club went against his recommendation anyway.  Just like a mechanic who is a Jacobsen fan; give him a Toro greens mower and it will never perform like the Jake.  Just the way it works.

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing green surfaces without changing approaches
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2017, 09:10:13 AM »

Jerry,
There will be another supt taking care of those greens soonIMHO.  It's difficult to go against what your supt wants and in most cases he has control of how the situation turns out.  And is probably looking in another direction if the club went against his recommendation anyway.  Just like a mechanic who is a Jacobsen fan; give him a Toro greens mower and it will never perform like the Jake.  Just the way it works.




  Disagree with Mike. Not a lot of decent Supt jobs out there available to be looking. He may not agree, but he will do everything he can to make sure it's a success and it's not mud on his face or the clubs. At the end of the day, 95% of Supts understand that the club is not "theirs," but is run by members and we do what we can to accomplish the memberships desires.
  A wise golf pro once told me, "Members get bills, we get checks." You will be fine.


PS-Not sure how many mechanics are fans of Jacobsen...can fix things when you cant get parts!
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changing green surfaces without changing approaches
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2017, 10:24:13 AM »
Tony,
OK..we can split 50/50 on that one.  The right guy can go forward as you say but at the same time lot of guys start looking. 
Agree on the Jake.  Just an example.... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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