[George_Bahto]

I’d like to share an interesting piece from the Country Club of Buffalo’s club history.

In the early days of the club  (1896 to 1898 era) it seems there were just three holes on the course:

quote:

“To help local people learn the game, Dr. Cary persuaded Charles B. Macdonald, the first U. S. Amateur Champion and author of the classic Scotland’s Gift - Golf, to come to Buffalo. Macdonald, Hibbard, and Dr. Cary expanded the original three holes to six (WOW), extending the “links” eastward that first year to Delaware Avenue.

Macdonald offered to demonstrate shots by lofting balls over the clubhouse, but cautious Cary took him over to the polo field, where Macdonald astonished the neophyte golfers by lofting shots over the trees”

[Ronald Montesano]

Bahto,
That's interesting stuff.  I believe that the original CCB then become the Park Club as CCB moved to Main and Bailey (Travis and Ross suggestions), then on to Williamsville (Ross).  Park moved out to Williamsville (Colt, Allison), too.  The original layout within city limits now is called Delaware Park and is a muni.  The Main/Bailey property (where the 1912 US Open and 1926 USAPL were held) is a county course called Grover Cleveland.  Anything else from C.B. MacDonald on Buffalo?

[DMoriarty]

George, you must be mistaken.  CB Macdonald would never have gone out of his way to help others with their golf course or their golf games, much less to Buffalo.   And if he had, he surely would have bragged about it for the rest of his life, and demanded full credit.   

[Thomas MacWood]

An interesting old post from George - Hibbard was the original architect of Garden City (with Emmet), which is where Macdonald played before the NGLA.

[Dan Herrmann]

Buffalo was the 9th biggest city in the USA back then - no doubt that it would have been on the radar of golf's giants of the time.

Buffalo golf is a very interesting tale.  For some reason, golf didn't really take off there like it did in the smaller, but more white-collar, Rochester, 70 miles to the east.  While Rochester has an embarrassment of golf course riches, Buffalo suffers a lack of great layouts - save for CCB and Park.   Toronto too, only 80 miles to the north, has much better golf than Buffalo.

Why does Rochester have great golf and Buffalo doesn't?  It'd be almost like Harrisburg having better golf courses than Philly.

By the way, today's Delaware Park golf course may be the worst muni in NY State.  (the park itself is Olmstead)

[Mike_Cirba]

George,

That's an interesting piece.   Does anyone know the year that Macdonald helped the folks at CCofB add three holes to make a six hole course?   Was it in the late 1890s?

David,

I don't understand the answer feigning surprise at Macdonald's largesse?

At least four separate individuals wrote that Macdonald "advised" Merion in 1912, and remarkably they all used the exact same verbiage.   They also expressed considerable gratitude and publicly so.   None of them ever said he designed the course in whole or in part, however; not even Macdonald, even after Macdonald went on to as much fame as an architect as he achieved as an amateur sportsman.    Even after Merion went on to host 3 US Amateur Championships and 1 US Open during Macdonald's lifetime.

I'm not sure where the disconnect is.   In the early days it seems that Macdonald was very much an apostle of growing the game and if that meant helping out a club he certainly seemed willing to offer his advice and expertise as asked.    Later, sadly...he seemed to sour on things and some of that was likely his uncompromising attitude.

[Kirk Gill]

In the early days it seems that Macdonald was very much an apostle of growing the game...

Mike, don't you mean an "Evangelist?"   

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
A month or so ago you were trying to make the case that Macdonald wasn't all that qualified in 1912, now you are commending him for offering his advice and expertise in 1900.

Macdonald never mentioned CC of Buffalo in his writing either. Its not uncommon for golf architects to distance themselves from courses that have been significantly redesigned since their involvement.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike
A month or so ago you were trying to make the case that Macdonald wasn't all that qualified in 1912, now you are commending him for offering his advice and expertise in 1900.

Macdonald never mentioned CC of Buffalo in his writing either. Its not uncommon for golf architects to distance themselves from courses that have been significantly redesigned since their involvement.

Tom,

Are you suggesting that helping map out adding three holes to an existing three hole course in what had to be a very crude field in the late 1890s should be seen as evidence of his architectural skill at this juncture?   

To suggest that some parallel exists between pointing out where play could be expanded from a crude three hole course to a six hole course at Buffalo in 1899 with the almost instant fame and allure of Merion as a championship course within four years (playing the original routing) after opening, and then gaining greater fame and plaudits throughout the rest of Macdonald's life is sort of a red herring, don't you think?   

It's pretty obvious why this work at Buffalo wouldn't have been mentioned by Macdonald.

It's more obvious why Macdonald never claimed to have designed Merion.

[Thomas MacWood]

I'm suggesting several things. First that you are inconsistant, on one hand you commend Macdonald for offering his expertise and on the other you try to make the case he had no expertise (especially when it comes to Merion). Second, the fact is Macdonald did not mention every golf course he collaborated on, therefore your theory is bogus. Third, you have no idea if Buffalo was crude or not relative to other courses of that time. Fourth, that CB's involvement at Buffalo, Chicago and with other projects, combined with his intense study abroad, led to him being considered one of the foremost experts in 1912. 

[George_Bahto]

Ron,  thanks for adding to the Buffalo story - no, I have nothing else about him in the Buffalo area although it seems a bit strange that was all he did in the area that far from "home base"

CB also did few other consultations such as assisting Capt. H C Tippett r Montauk Downs in 1927 (pretty later in his life for that)

[bill_k]

So, the course upon which the 1912 US Open (then belonging to the CC of Buffalo) was played is still in existence -albeit as a muni?

[DMoriarty]

David,

I don't understand the answer feigning surprise at Macdonald's largesse?

At least four separate individuals wrote that Macdonald "advised" Merion in 1912, and remarkably they all used the exact same verbiage.   They also expressed considerable gratitude and publicly so.   None of them ever said he designed the course in whole or in part, however; not even Macdonald, even after Macdonald went on to as much fame as an architect as he achieved as an amateur sportsman.    Even after Merion went on to host 3 US Amateur Championships and 1 US Open during Macdonald's lifetime.

I'm not sure where the disconnect is.   In the early days it seems that Macdonald was very much an apostle of growing the game and if that meant helping out a club he certainly seemed willing to offer his advice and expertise as asked.    Later, sadly...he seemed to sour on things and some of that was likely his uncompromising attitude.

Mike,  I was simply making a joke for George's benefit.   Since he has many more years in dealing with the absurd, agenda driven misrepresentations regarding MacDonald than I have, I thought it might find the comment entertaining.   

In retrospect this was unnecessary.  My attempts at humor and parody could never match your own comic treatment of the subject, made funnier because you are attempting to be serious and most likely see no humor at all the opportunistic, contradictory, and largely inaccurate positions you have taken on these issues.   Look at the few sentences you have written above.   Somehow you manage to mischaracterize the tenor of the past discussion,  your past positions, the original sources, and Macdonald all in a few lines.
 
But as I said, my comment was a joke, for George's benefit.  I have a feeling that he got the joke even if you did not.   Let's leave your righteous revisions of our past discussions aside and let this thread be about CC of Buffalo.   I am bored with writing the same things to you over and over. 

[Ronald Montesano]

I did an article a few years back for a publication called Western New York Heritage on the evolution of the Main-Bailey property.  I have the routing from way back when (the 1912 course) and the current one.  I have a great theory on the Volcano hole at the present course, which I'll share with anyone interested.  I think that Ross tried it out at the Main/Bailey property (on a less grand scale...he was called in to consult and recommended a new piece of property) and perfected it at the new course.  I'll try to dig up those images.

[DMoriarty]

I'd love to hear the theory and see the pics and routing.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Yes, your theory is now accepted worldwide and I'm sure you grow bored re-explaining the obvious to me over and over.   

I'm sure there is no leap to conclusions or assumptions on you or Tom's part in believing that Macdonald's three hole addition to a three hole course in 1897 reeked of architectural intrigue, strategy, and finesse. 

Have you seen the original routing for Chicago GC?

Macdonald later did study, and study, and do trips abroad, and eventually became the CB we all know and love but don't put him there in 1890something because it just ain't so.

He was not much more clued-in than those others who were building cross-bunkers and steep, elephantine features.

He was also the most famous GOLFER in this country in the early days, so his expertise in all things golf was assumed.

It was only later that he proved himself worthy of the mantle.

There is nothing inconsistent in recognizing those things for what they are...historical fact, and not hopeless, contrarian, and recklessly personalized speculation.

[DMoriarty]

David,

Yes, your theory is now accepted worldwide and I'm sure you grow bored re-explaining the obvious to me over and over.   

I'm sure there is no leap to conclusions or assumptions on you or Tom's part in believing that Macdonald's three hole addition to a three hole course in 1897 reeked of architectural intrigue, strategy, and finesse. 

Have you seen the original routing for Chicago GC?

Macdonald later did study, and study, and do trips abroad, and eventually became the CB we all know and love but don't put him there in 1890something because it just ain't so.

He was not much more clued-in than those others who were building cross-bunkers and steep, elephantine features.

He was also the most famous GOLFER in this country in the early days, so his expertise in all things golf was assumed.

It was only later that he proved himself worthy of the mantle.

There is nothing inconsistent in recognizing those things for what they are...historical fact, and not hopeless, contrarian, and recklessly personalized speculation.

Mike, weren't you going to take a break?   

[Mike_Cirba]

ah yes...I guess I let you pull me back in with your humor.

My bad.   

[Jed Peters]

Isn't he the guy that designed merion?

[DMoriarty]

Isn't he the guy that designed merion?

As far as I know.

[Dan Herrmann]

So, the course upon which the 1912 US Open (then belonging to the CC of Buffalo) was played is still in existence -albeit as a muni?

Not really - There's a golf course there, but it's not the course that hosted the 1912 Open.

Much of the 1912 land is now part of my alma mater, SUNY/Buffalo.

[Dan Herrmann]

Ronald - please do post what you have!  The '12 Open has always interested me.

[Mike_Cirba]

Isn't he the guy that designed merion?

As far as I know.

For a guy who is sick and tired of discussing the whole thing, you sure have a lot of humor left in you! 

[DMoriarty]

Isn't he the guy that designed merion?

As far as I know.

For a guy who is sick and tired of discussing the whole thing, you sure have a lot of humor left in you! 

Humor?

[Mike_Cirba]

Well...perhaps unintentional on your part, but I have to admit to some spontaneous chuckling. 


Ron,

Please count me in this tight-knit group who would love to see what you have on the original course.   Thanks!

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