[Tom_Doak]

A blog I like to read has a periodic section entitled "Guillotine Watch" when they find news stories about people flaunting their wealth.  I'm sensitive to the topic because golf has the image of being elitist, and it's not something I like to see perpetuated.


I guess GOLF DIGEST has a different perspective, judging from the Real Estate page in their recent issues.  This month, they post ads [presented as editorial content] for Jeff Sluman's $4.4 million house in Chicago, which is on the market, a $69 million ranch on Lake Tahoe which is not actually adjacent to any golf course, and the $50 million Three Ponds Farm estate in Bridgehampton, NY.  [The property taxes on the latter are $220k / yr.]


How many magazines is that page selling, exactly?  Or are they trying to earn a commission?  If so, I guess the higher the listing price, the better for their bottom line.  Until the people with the pitchforks arrive, anyway.

[jeffwarne]

Interesting as the price of homes has doubled out here since the recession that Three Ponds would be for sale for 25 million LESS than they wanted in 2010.

[Peter Pallotta]

A neighbour of mine, a nice person, cares about the environment, wondered aloud the other day about all the golf courses in dry climates like Arizona and San Diego - and suggested that 100% synthetic turf be used instead. I said something about folks with fancy homes in the desert liking green grass, and she said "Then make joining a club with a synthetic course the most expensive option in town, and they'd all feel good about it". Cynical? Remarkably astute? I don't know. But the perception of the game, in many quarters, is certainly not changing any, or for the better.

[Jason Topp]

I will never forget playing in an evening league with a guy in a muscle short, another guy who was unemployed and a third who was a vet who worked about 10 hours a week.  All of us loved the game and competed like crazy.  We grilled before the round and drank beer from the back of a pickup truck to avoid paying the prices in the clubhouse.


The next morning, I was at a seminar where the elitist nature of the game became an example.  I couldn't stay silent and basically derailed the entire seminar by arguing with the entire group over where the game was elitist.  I am confident I failed to change any perspectives that day. 


Characterizing the game as a whole is like characterizing a restaurant.  Some restaurants are extraordinarily elitist.  A hot dog stand is not.  Analogous golf situations exist. 


I think there are two factors that contribute to the image that I do not think can, or should necessarily change.


First - golf is difficult.  Anyone who wants to enjoy the game needs to invest a significant amount of time to enjoy it in even the most rudimentary setting.  Thus, it is difficult to have a casual understanding of the game.


Second - many of the most celebrated parts of golf are elitist.  There are portions of the game that can command a premium price by selling the image of being elitist.  PXG equipment is brilliantly capturing a portion of that market.  Resorts can command premium fees at all of their courses if their feature course has hosted a major.  Housing can command a premium if the developer creates the correct elitist model. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Yesterday I decided, and told the girl behind the counter, that I have squeezed my last ketchup packet. I just want a better life for myself.

[Mike_Young]

IMHO golf magazines are grasping at straws now since they have to make it on golf and not real estate advertising.  The entire business that most of us read about is made up of those courses that need national attention for some reason. That reason is either selling lots or rooms or similar items.  And that amounts to probably less than 2000 of the courses in the US.  As we see some of the management companies starting to shrink then we know OVERALL golf is coming back.  There are 15,500 courses in the US and the condition of the golf business does not necessarily reflect the condition of the game even if the industry would like for people to think so. 

JT,  seems to me most elitist are eltist because they have declared themselves elitist.  It is very noticeable on this site where they seem to find each other and grow their elitism form there.  They decide many on here are not worthy of discussing issues  with them.  However, when you meet these guys you find they are usually more slap dick than elitist.  The game of golf is no more elitist than the automobile business....there i just no need for most of golf to be discussed and so all conversation revolves around the elite or self annointed elite.

[John Kavanaugh]

So now are we saying that all cars are the same? If you don't buy a Hyundai knockoff you are an elitist.

[Mike_Young]

So now are we saying that all cars are the same? If you don't buy a Hyundai knockoff you are an elitist.

Ok...I was trying to say there is a large car market out there but the Hyundai knock-off will not get the press or the hype of the Porsche or Lambourghini...even Mercedes crept out of the elitist market...

[Howard Riefs]

I guess GOLF DIGEST has a different perspective, judging from the Real Estate page in their recent issues.  This month, they post ads [presented as editorial content] for Jeff Sluman's $4.4 million house in Chicago, which is on the market, a $69 million ranch on Lake Tahoe which is not actually adjacent to any golf course, and the $50 million Three Ponds Farm estate in Bridgehampton, NY.  [The property taxes on the latter are $220k / yr.]

And it's not even timely as Sluman's home in Hinsdale sold back in December.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/realestate/elitestreet/ct-elite-street-jeff-sluman-hinsdale-1225-biz-20161224-story.html

[Joe Hancock]

A neighbour of mine, a nice person, cares about the environment, wondered aloud the other day about all the golf courses in dry climates like Arizona and San Diego - and suggested that 100% synthetic turf be used instead. I said something about folks with fancy homes in the desert liking green grass, and she said "Then make joining a club with a synthetic course the most expensive option in town, and they'd all feel good about it". Cynical? Remarkably astute? I don't know. But the perception of the game, in many quarters, is certainly not changing any, or for the better.

I like the irony of a nature lover wanting to use synthetic materials as a solution to a percieved problem. Thise synthetic materials just magically appear without any carbon footprint.....I bet she didn't put two and two together before making that comment.

[David_Elvins]

Joe,


Being concerned about the environment is not the same as being a nature lover and being concerned about water security is not the same as being concerned about greenhouse emissions.

[BCowan]

Yesterday I decided, and told the girl behind the counter, that I have squeezed my last ketchup packet. I just want a better life for myself.

Next time you are going to ask for grey poupon?

[John Kavanaugh]

I did an elitism experiment last night on the way home from work. I stopped in at a bar that I would never regularly visit. It wasn't a cinderella story. Don't try to school a dude who skipped school. Safety and comfort of surroundings is not an elitist view. It's feels more like a human nature thing on the walk back to your car.

[BCowan]

So now are we saying that all cars are the same? If you don't buy a Hyundai knockoff you are an elitist.

Ok...I was trying to say there is a large car market out there but the Hyundai knock-off will not get the press or the hype of the Porsche or Lambourghini...even Mercedes crept out of the elitist market...

Home run Mike.  Just as Porsche used the Cheyenne to generate capital to invest into their rarer cars.  Many of the slap dicks said they were killing the brand.  It was a success.  Funny as one can get a VW Touareg for 20-30k less then the Cheyenne and it's practically the same car minus a few whistles.



"As we see some of the management companies starting to shrink then we know OVERALL golf is coming back."
Well said

[Steve Lapper]

A blog I like to read has a periodic section entitled "Guillotine Watch" when they find news stories about people flaunting their wealth.  I'm sensitive to the topic because golf has the image of being elitist, and it's not something I like to see perpetuated.


I guess GOLF DIGEST has a different perspective, judging from the Real Estate page in their recent issues.  This month, they post ads [presented as editorial content] for Jeff Sluman's $4.4 million house in Chicago, which is on the market, a $69 million ranch on Lake Tahoe which is not actually adjacent to any golf course, and the $50 million Three Ponds Farm estate in Bridgehampton, NY.  [The property taxes on the latter are $220k / yr.]


How many magazines is that page selling, exactly?  Or are they trying to earn a commission?  If so, I guess the higher the listing price, the better for their bottom line.  Until the people with the pitchforks arrive, anyway.

  Several interesting takeaways from your observation(s).


  The straight answer to your question is that Golf Digest is distinctly pivoting away from it's past, towards a more contemporary, 24/7 media-saturated, ADHD-addled present and future. Their recent subjects, ranging from how and where to strategically urinate along a golf round to which strain of marijuana is best suited for different golfers, strain any journalistic credibility, yet (desperately) attempt to appeal to a younger, millennial audience.


  Throwing the older, wealthy, baby-boomer set some Real Estate eye-candy (i.e. RE Porn) is but yet another lame ill-guided endeavor designed to appease that demographic's fading hedonistic tendencies. There's no expectation, nor hope of any future commission. That's illegal under any current real estate brokerage laws. Nope, it's purely a blatant attempt to drum up some indeterminable ad revenue stream from some mildly correlated demographic that Conde Nast has used successfully before with their other titles. In the trade they call it "cross-pollination,"or "symbiotic content." Only the platforms and titles differentiate it.


  Jerry Tarde, et.al. once respected golf journalists, again proves that they are merely the stable of "street-walkers," ready and willing to serve their pimp daddys. The recent wholesaling of their ratings panel only provides even further proof. Almost needless to add, I'm inclined to agree with Bill Schulz's glaringly honest assessments over on that "other" thread.


   I do say though that I'm not at all sure I buy into your viewing this "Guillotine Watch" under the guise of worrying about the "the image of golf being viewed as elitist." IMO, it's probably too late for that, and while I fully understand and respect (and sympathize with) your right as an artisan to make a good living, its perhaps just a tad hypocritical to "worry about such an images' perpetuation." There are certainly a myriad of other ways to counteract that kind of trend.
 


 

[Tom_Doak]

 Just as Porsche used the Cheyenne to generate capital to invest into their rarer cars. 

The main market for the Porsche Cayenne, from what I saw, was developers.  Every developer we were working for in 2007 had one or two, to show prospective members / buyers around their sites ... all on a business / development loan from the bank, of course.  There were a lot of used ones for sale after the housing crash stopped all those projects in mid-stream!

[John Kavanaugh]

You can't judge a man by the car he buys his wife.

[Peter Pallotta]

You can't judge a man by the car he buys his wife.

Or can you?

[John Kavanaugh]

You can't judge a man by the car he buys his wife.

Or can you?

The line between love and guilt is too fine to be judged through optics.

[John Kavanaugh]

Can anyone support the argument that golf is not an elitist sport? Is there an situation where golfers pay more to play somewhere they would prefer not to be just for the status of it all? How is simply playing the best least crowded course available with the people you like elitist?

[Tom_Doak]

 its perhaps just a tad hypocritical to "worry about such an images' perpetuation." There are certainly a myriad of other ways to counteract that kind of trend.
 

Steve:


I've built a lot of golf courses for fairly modest budgets, and I'm not the one who sets the prices for them.  It does bother me that when the Revolution comes, most of our clients will be targets for the guys with the pitchforks, and I'll probably be targeted because of "guilt by association".


I lived a year in the UK and Ireland where there was zero perception of golf as elitist, in a country where they are keenly aware of elitism.  It's Americans that turned it into a negative -- by the very "market forces" that we are so keen to embrace.  If you've got other ways to counteract that trend, speak up ... we need them!

[BCowan]

 Just as Porsche used the Cheyenne to generate capital to invest into their rarer cars. 

The main market for the Porsche Cayenne, from what I saw, was developers.  Every developer we were working for in 2007 had one or two, to show prospective members / buyers around their sites ... all on a business / development loan from the bank, of course.  There were a lot of used ones for sale after the housing crash stopped all those projects in mid-stream!

Tom,


   Porsche elitist were pissed when the Cayenne came out.  The auto bubble is bursting, lots of domestic inventory sitting around and defaults.  The point of the Cayenne was to make a Porsche affordable to a larger market.  There was a lot of everything for sale after the 08 bubble. Cash for clunkers will come back soon to prop up those used car prices.  Cheep credit and fiat= booms and busts.  "market forces"- LOL

[BCowan]

Can anyone support the argument that golf is not an elitist sport? Is there an situation where golfers pay more to play somewhere they would prefer not to be just for the status of it all? How is simply playing the best least crowded course available with the people you like elitist?

This goes against the Buddy Up principals.  I understand your issues with the modern day Yo Yo that is taking over this wonderful game we are trying to preserve.  How about a crowded course that moves at a nice pace and with people that love and respect the game?

[John Kavanaugh]

Can anyone support the argument that golf is not an elitist sport? Is there an situation where golfers pay more to play somewhere they would prefer not to be just for the status of it all? How is simply playing the best least crowded course available with the people you like elitist?

How about a crowded course that moves at a nice pace and with people that love and respect the game?

I am a member of several.

[Tim Gavrich]

I've had a lot of experiences in golf that incline me to agree with Jason: that golf isn't that elitist in many places.


But the fact remains that to non-golfers, golf is a very handy symbol for elitism, at least in America and especially the developing world, where it's thoroughly a 1% or .1% pursuit.


That said, I do think that every year, golf becomes more and more a game for the people, because municipalities are investing in their golf courses. I'm sitting about 20, 25 minutes from Wintonbury Hills GC and Keney Park GC, two phenomenal municipal facilities in Hartford County, CT. Wintonbury was built from scratch, but Keney has been converted into a barely-used relic into a hub of recreation for people from all walks of life, at least in the context of the general pool of golfers.


It may not be these municipalities' explicit intentions, but improving the golf courses that can be accessed by those on the middle and lower tiers of golf's economic spectrum shows a greater respect for golfers who are not in the top 10%, 1%, .1%, .01%. That one of the two or three best golf courses in the county can be played for $30 or less is as strong a counter-argument to the overly simple argument that golf is monolithically elitist as I have seen in practice. More of that, and in a few decades society might be willing to look a little deeper into golf as a pursuit for the masses.


(N.B.: Of course, there is the undeniable fact that many golfers don't want it to be a pursuit for the masses. These are the people who make non-golfers so sure the game is elitist, and it's hard to argue with them there.)

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