Streams vrs ponds. Which are most effective GCA, playability, maintenance etc wise?

[Thomas Dai]

Streams vrs ponds.
Which are most effective GCA, playability, maintenance etc wise?
Atb

[RJ_Daley]

I think that streams are by far the more effective and desirable design feature. 

For one thing, I think streams present the architect with a more challenging, yet opportunity to demonstrate great design sense.  Using the stream as a diagonal, lateral or crossing hazard, or as an integral part of the overall throughout the property drainage system. 

Assuming permitting, one can dig a pond more easily, and they can serve the purpose of hazards and water storage, etc.  But, in my view, ponds aren't so much a part of the terrain like a natural flowing creek/stream, water course.  One can more easily place ponds and I think it makes the hole or corridor design look more artificial.  Yes, a pond can exist in a natural state, perhaps with a marshy border, etc.  Then, the aesthetic may seem more natural like a stream. 

Department of natural resources in various countries and states do have a variety of regulations and restrictions on earth works, shaping or grading near streams.  Permitting for ponds is a bit more straight forward.  Here, one needs lengthy hearings and permitting procedures to dig a pond or other excavation withing 500 ft of a navigable water way, which is defined very liberally, including water courses that are only seasonally flowing.  Permits and variances are hard to obtain.  The same is applicable to changing the course of a water way or stream.  So, the archie must design around much of that.  It makes the archie use more creativity.  That leads to better design overall, in my opinion. 

Maintenance can be more easily designed into a created pond.  Slope can be designed better for mowing machines.  Natural ponds with wetland or marshy borders becomes harder to maintain, with enviro sensitive areas between the wet and the fairway/rough areas.  Streams are a mixed bag often requiring good erosion and cave-in protection.  Rip-rap, weirs, dams are all problematic and need good architectural design knowledge. 

Perhaps the most interesting are the 'created streams' with recirculating water.  I've seen the ones at Shadow Creed, and Barona Creek (I think the same landscape works company built both).  They are aesthetically beautiful, integral to the hole designs, and great examples of what can be done. 

I'll take a stream over a pond anyday.... 

[Jeff_Brauer]

RJ,


You sounded like an architect there. Good summary of the issues.


Will only add that you do need at least one decent sized pond for irrigation storage, preferably off stream to minimize silting. Damming a stream to make a pond always ends up requiring silt removal, not to mention, who knows what chemicals get dumped in the stream and might harm your turf.  (It has happened)  And, all non irrigation ponds should be substantially smaller, in general.  As RJ mentions, there are still regulations, such as total water surface area must remain under X % to reduce evaporation, etc.


Sometimes, long ponds, like channels, are required to create drainage outlets and/or allow dilution of chemical inputs to safe levels.  EPA types prefer all golf drainage hit a dilution area before being released into streams.


Another problem with streams - ones that flow constantly often flood periodically, as the flow is generated from average runoff from large areas, but big rains cause floods.  And, smaller streams are often intermittent.  While we are (or were) used to dirt ditches on muni's, upper level courses sometimes figure that their customers in summer months deserve to see water flowing as much as the guys who play in spring!


I agree with RJ that a nice babbling brook makes a great design feature, but ponds may make more sense for other reasons.

[Thomas Dai]

Nice posts. Thank you.
My preference is stream instead of pond although I understand the irrigation aspect.

If a stream is 'twisty' and 'curly' then it's effective area increases considerably. The stream, sorry burn, across the 13th at Cruden Bay would be an example.
atb

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not sure why, but thinking about Merion 11. When built, that little country stream was probably fine, although I am not sure if the wall and elevated green was original.  As the country club area got urbanized stream flow probably went up 5X, causing later problems.  Chalk up another win for ponds, generally they are future proof, although I have seen many go back and install rock or walls to deal with wave action.  In general, you are better locating ponds across the prevailing wind, rather than on line with it, which can build up wave action.

[BCowan]

This thread pertains to man made creeks. 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58002.msg1447009.html#msg1447009

[Garland Bayley]

A comment one often sees on this website is that ponds are the lazy architect's design crutch.

My comment is that I can accidentally miss a stream much easier than accidentally missing a pond. As a high handicapper, I tend to steer well clear of water hazards. If I happen to accidentally hit the ball towards one, the pond becomes a penal snare, while the stream often dodges my ball. As the old time architects decreed, it is the high handicappers that pay the bills, so give them a route to the hole. Ponds restrict that route far more than do streams. Besides being easier to accidentally miss, streams are easier to hit over, even with the good old worm burner.

[Greg Chambers]

Ponds are a maintenance money pit

[Steve Okula]

Maintenance costs of water hazards depends on the demands of the golfing clientele. If they expect a manicured carpet of turf to the edge of clear, blue water, then that's going to be expensive. On the other hand, if they're all right with a natural wetlands look including algae, bullrushes and weeds, then the cost is minimal. If ponds are created with adequate depth, substantial circulation, and good quality water, then they are much easier to keep clean of algae and aquatic plants.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Also not mentioned but there are a fair amount of courses built specifically (or at least partially) with the idea that the ponds act as floodwater detention as part of a regional plan.


I love creeks, but am usually forced to design at least one pond, as noted, for irrigation, and sometimes many more.

[Sam Kestin]

I also think from an ambiance standpoint that the auditory component of a running stream does add something to the experience of playing a particular golf hole. It's a soothing sound and creates a certain feel you don't get with a pond--and while this isn't necessarily a thought from the standpoint of strategic architecture I do think that the mood created by the environment you're in is a key piece of the experience of playing a golf course.


Among thousands of other reasons--part of what people like about golf is that they get to go play it out in nature. We get plenty of visual reminders that we're in nature but far more rare are the auditory reminders.

[Steve Lang]

   really do need a pond or body of water for a good cape hole, babbling brook is nice but usually not too visually challenging, and a creek can certainly get loaded with flow

[Garland Bayley]

So Steve,

Are you saying 9, The Cape Hole, at Old MacDonald is not a good cape hole, because it has no water hazard?

[Steve Lang]

   Garland,


I liked OM very much when we played it opening weekend, but frankly after the one play, and all these years, I don't remember the Cape Hole in particular from the playing ground view, though I remember others quite well.  So yes, if it had had water, as others I've seen, perhaps more memorable and definitely water is more punishing!



 

from https://geekedongolf.com/2016/02/22/national-golf-links-of-america-tour-by-jon-cavalier/ngla14-rightbunkers-jc

You may now roast me...

[Garland Bayley]

Why does golf have to be punishing? Can't we just let the weather be punishing as punishing enough?

[Steve Lang]

   Naw, the weather is only dynamic, like bowel movement...

"A person who has been punished is not thereby less inclined to behave in a given way; at best, he learns how to avoid punishment."


BF Skinner

[herrstein]

Streams.

[Garland Bayley]

  Naw, the weather is only dynamic, like bowel movement...

"A person who has been punished is not thereby less inclined to behave in a given way; at best, he learns how to avoid punishment."


BF Skinner

So Skinner tells us to avoid courses with ponds. QED!

[Steve Lang]

   GB, I wouldn't call that complete... but perhaps best for you??  I never met a sucker pin I didn't like!

[Kalen Braley]

Can't believe this group doesn't like something like this...perhaps the most famous pond in all of golf!! 

[Steve Lang]

  's