[David Kelly]

Derivative.
ANGC is the only course in the world that really only exists for 1 week out of the year.  A winter golf getaway for the elite long, long ago gave way to The Masters tournament as the course's entire reason for being and every single member would tell you that.  The course's design works.  It routinely provides an exciting week of golf and its winners list features virtually every great golfer of the last 75 years.  To think of how it could be tweaked to make it better misses the point entirely.

[Sean_A]

Almost any shaping would look better than dull bowls that exist in the ground now at Augusta.  For those that say bunker shaping is of so little importance that it isn't worth discussing...I call bullshit. Everybody knows that bunker styles sell design.  Why else would clubs bother redesigning bunkers when the money would be better spent elsewhere on the course? 

Ciao

[Ben Sims]

When is someone going to build a good bunkerless golf course?

[Sean_A]

When is someone going to build a good bunkerless golf course?

Its called Kington.


Ciao

[Joe Hancock]

When is someone going to build a good bunkerless golf course?

As soon as 150-200 people offer up the money to support it. In all seriousness, how many golfers want a bunkerless course?

[Thomas Dai]

Bunker 'style' - there are aspects of what I think we are calling 'bunker style' that do effect playability and that's when the ball is close to the surrounding edge or just in the sand where you can get a variety of lies and stances and thus require different playing skills and techniques to recover.

I would imagine you'd get a lot more variety of lies and stances with the lower than the top bunkering in the following example taken form the first post -


Also there's the message the 'style' sends out - the lower image sends a much more "don't mess with me, I'm a nasty place to hit your ball" message than the top photo. Less chance of the "get in the bunker" approach to the game?

Just a couple of pennies worth.

atb

[Ben Stephens]

To be honest I am not a fan of JKD proposals. The rough edged bunkers are more suited to courses like Pinehurst.


Augusta is all about clean lines and precision.




Imagine if the club reverted the 7th to what Mac had originally intended. For me the players found it more difficult to chip from tight lies around the greens than play out of the bunkers. This would make it easier for the members but harder for the pros.




Tiger had a great article in the Times before the Masters - he said he would shorten the course, remove a number of trees and widen the fairways and take out a few bunkers. He mentioned that the 5th new fairway bunkers were ridiculous as well as bunkers at 330 yards away from the tee on the par 5s where it should shorter to enable players to carry it with more risky drives.


Boy I do miss those choccy drop mounds on 15 that hole is one dimensional off the tee nowadays. Great 2nd shot by Sergio though!

[Niall C]

When is someone going to build a good bunkerless golf course?

Its called Kington.


Ciao

and I'm sure there are several more. Ben just needs to get off his backside and go look for them.


Niall

[William_G]

photoshop is fun and educational no doubt for golf or most anything and likely helps you get "jobs"

FWIW...reqs of the ASGCA for membership

Membership Requirements
•Complete a 2-year application process, including peer-review of work
•Have a minimum eight years’ experience practicing golf course architecture
•Design a minimum of five, 18-hole new golf courses (or approved equivalent renovations)
•Be sponsored by three active members who can vouch for character, integrity and skill
•Abide by the ASGCA’s standards of professional practice and a stringent Code of Ethics

[Ira Fishman]

To be honest I am not a fan of JKD proposals. The rough edged bunkers are more suited to courses like Pinehurst.


Augusta is all about clean lines and precision.




Imagine if the club reverted the 7th to what Mac had originally intended. For me the players found it more difficult to chip from tight lies around the greens than play out of the bunkers. This would make it easier for the members but harder for the pros.




Tiger had a great article in the Times before the Masters - he said he would shorten the course, remove a number of trees and widen the fairways and take out a few bunkers. He mentioned that the 5th new fairway bunkers were ridiculous as well as bunkers at 330 yards away from the tee on the par 5s where it should shorter to enable players to carry it with more risky drives.


Boy I do miss those choccy drop mounds on 15 that hole is one dimensional off the tee nowadays. Great 2nd shot by Sergio though!

Does anyone have a photo shop of all 18 holes as if they were the original design?  It would be very cool to see.

[Mike Hendren]

Every moron wants to hang another ornament on the perfect Christmas tree.

Bogey

[Ben Sims]

When is someone going to build a good bunkerless golf course?

As soon as 150-200 people offer up the money to support it. In all seriousness, how many golfers want a bunkerless course?

Fair enough. It would be more of an exercise to be honest. I've seen one, an Engh in Colorado that is not so cool in my opinion. But you're right.

[Don Mahaffey]

I think the "layperson" may gain a better  understanding of why some in this business feel the way they do if they would study some before/after examples. Pretty pictures vs what actually gets built can be enlightening.

[Tom_Doak]

For those that say bunker shaping is of so little importance that it isn't worth discussing...I call bullshit. Everybody knows that bunker styles sell design.  Why else would clubs bother redesigning bunkers when the money would be better spent elsewhere on the course? 

Sean:


Augusta National doesn't have to sell bunker design to anybody ... Q.E.D., if you look at the bunkers they now have.


But what is there to discuss about bunker styling?  I like this one better, you like that one better, let's leave out that both would be impractical on clay.


You know that it's more important where the bunkers are, than what they look like.  If I was going to discuss anything about bunkering at Augusta, it would be placement, not styling.

[Ben Stephens]

When is someone going to build a good bunkerless golf course?

Its called Kington.


Ciao

and I'm sure there are several more. Ben just needs to get off his backside and go look for them.


Niall

Niall,


Adrian and I had designed a bunkerless course at Portishead but that fell through thanks to a bunch of local nimbys


Greys Green back nine which we are currently doing is all grass bunkers and hollows at present - not sure if we are going to add sand in the future.


Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

Its amazing to see how much the trees have grown in last 15 years having seen 2002 photo.


If you looked at the 3rd - Players missing the green at the back with a difficult chip as they could not generate the spin that they can get out of a bunker. These days for the pros bunkers are less of an hazard that they used to be - the short grass is more of a hazard for them.

[Garland Bayley]

I find the bunkers at ANGC butt ugly.

Almost any change would be an improvement, and I find these to be visually quite an improvement.

If photoshop works like this to show improvement, use it.

[Garland Bayley]

...  A winter golf getaway for the elite long, long ago gave way to The Masters tournament as the course's entire reason for being and every single member would tell you that. 

Maybe not every member. Gates and Buffet emphasize the great member events they put on.

The course's design works.  It routinely provides an exciting week of golf and its winners list features virtually every great golfer of the last 75 years.  To think of how it could be tweaked to make it better misses the point entirely.

The course's design has nothing to do with who wins. Restricting the field to a few top golfers, and making them play against the over the hill gang has far more to do with who wins.

[Garland Bayley]

When is someone going to build a good bunkerless golf course?

Been done already. Bill Diddel (Pete Dye's mentor) made that a design goal for a while. Unfortunately, clubs put in bunkers later to be more "standard".

[Garland Bayley]

When is someone going to build a good bunkerless golf course?

Its called Kington.


Ciao

Touche'

[Sean_A]

For those that say bunker shaping is of so little importance that it isn't worth discussing...I call bullshit. Everybody knows that bunker styles sell design.  Why else would clubs bother redesigning bunkers when the money would be better spent elsewhere on the course? 

Sean:


Augusta National doesn't have to sell bunker design to anybody ... Q.E.D., if you look at the bunkers they now have.


But what is there to discuss about bunker styling?  I like this one better, you like that one better, let's leave out that both would be impractical on clay.


You know that it's more important where the bunkers are, than what they look like.  If I was going to discuss anything about bunkering at Augusta, it would be placement, not styling.

Tom

Augusta doesn't have to sell anything anytime, but they do every single year come the Masters. 

I agree, its better to discuss bunker placement, but honestly, my discussion begins and ends with when the course was nearly new.  I find that bunker scheme incredible...and incredibly difficult to grasp without being on site.  But I also think style has its place.  Unfortunately, the 60s-80s style of bowl bunkers does nothing for me.  The fewer of those things the better.

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

Obviously bunker placement is far more important than bunker style. But, at ANGC, do you place them for member play, or do you place them for tournament play? It seems to me that the club has to sacrifice what it should do with what it has to do, because of the tournament.

[John Nixon]

I don't think they're suggesting a false front on 12 at all. I think it's a poor Photoshop attempt at extending the green out to cover part of the area that's currently part of the bunker. You can see the "shadow" of the current bunker in the 'shopped version. How would a false front there affect playing the hole when the pin is on that side of the green? JMO

[Martin Lehmann]

Imagine if the club reverted the 7th to what Mac had originally intended. For me the players found it more difficult to chip from tight lies around the greens than play out of the bunkers. This would make it easier for the members but harder for the pros.


Couldn't agree more. And I know it doesn't apply to Augusta National Golfclub, but for mortal golf clubs it makes course construction and maintenance less expensive as well. Bunkers are like fat food, the taste is often nice, but you get saturated quickly.

Besides 'form follows function', 'lean and mean' is an adagium that should be followed more often when (re)designing golf courses.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I am with Ally and others and think the bunker alterations would be better.


For a long time now I think Augusta has very ugly bunkering and is the ruination of it. I have not been there so only know what I see from photos but have a feeling I would be very disappointed with it as a golf course.


Can't really say I am a fan of hitting the ball to a spot and it rolling 60 feet backwards from a playing point of view but it makes good viewing and this yeas Masters sparked a lot of interest back into the game.

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