The single plane "jagged edge" bunker , is it considered minimalism?

[Mike_Young]

I have always considered the "blow-out", "jagged edged", scraggly bunkers to be a bunker that needs to be indiginous to a sandy area with native sands. 
In case I have not explained myself fully, let's take a basic Raynor bunker and then let's take the greenside bunker face and create a jagged, wiggly, sand line.  That's about as basic an explanation as I can think of.  I keep seeing these things all over the place and keep hearing people go apesh*t over such when it is just plain tacky IMHO.  I don't get it.  No fingers, no 3D just some guy with a paint gun and a shaky hand putting something on a golf course that will increase maintenance and is in no way minimal.  At least one of the big sigs has been doing it for years and it is becoming more and more common and I don't see the logic.  Am I wrong or does anyone else see this becoming more and more popular?

[Mike Sweeney]

Other than the Sand Hills area of Nebraska, I have never seen "natural bunkers" in inland areas. Maybe Pinehurst and maybe Pine Valley, but definitely not Westchester County, NY.


Surprisingly, I am okay with "Interior Designers" and GCA Architects creating "crown molding" interiors and "jagged edge" bunkers. It's not natural, and I would rather have Kavanaugh pay for it 364 days a year so that I can visit 1 day per year, but that does not mean that I do not appreciate the talent to create it.


That said, MacRaynor courses should not have "jagged edged" bunkers.

[Mike_Young]

Surprisingly, I am okay with "Interior Designers" and GCA Architects creating "crown molding" interiors and "jagged edge" bunkers. It's not natural, and I would rather have Kavanaugh pay for it 364 days a year so that I can visit 1 day per year, but that does not mean that I do not appreciate the talent to create it.

Hmmmm...and I was thinking it was due to a lack of talent ...the talent would be if they could go 3D and feather it into the bunkers etc...

[Ben Sims]

Not to be a smart-aleck Mike, but it's only minimalism if you say it is.


I generally don't know what is miminalist and what isn't until I'm told.

[Mike_Young]

Not to be a smart-aleck Mike, but it's only minimalism if you say it is.


I generally don't know what is miminalist and what isn't until I'm told.

Is this who I think it is?  Lack of vowels is very minimalistic....

[Ben Sims]

Not to be a smart-aleck Mike, but it's only minimalism if you say it is.


I generally don't know what is miminalist and what isn't until I'm told.

Is this who I think it is?  Lack of vowels is very minimalistic....

Haha. Indeed. Got to keep a low profile.

[Blake Conant]

The jagged bunker is what minimalism often gets boiled down to, so an architect copies it thinking he can pull the wool over people's eyes. Sort of. 


But the architect doesn't ask his contractor or shapers to shape any differently.  They aren't putting the bunkers anywhere different than they normally would.  The only difference for them is the edge line.  It's mimicry, but not a good mimic.

More and more I'm noticing golf getting judged based on how cool the art is, rather than how good the golf is.  It's frustrating. It should be the other way around, but magazines and writers and bloggers and golfers and even architects are fascinated/blinded by golf art.  I don't know where good art falls on the list of things needed to build a good golf course, but I bet it's prioritized higher than it should be on the vast majority of new projects. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

I agree 100% Mike


A "minimalist" bunker is when you dig a hole and it looks better as it matures and the native plants or turf makes a random back edge.
This would fit with your general past descriptions of the old dead guys, they didn't do that much, just dig a hole and let the stuff grow back - presto they are geniuses.
The cookie cutter bunkers you describe look bad no matter how fancy the outline or how much paint is used.


Where you don't give the old dead guys enough credit is with their routings, green surfaces and feature locations.


Cheers

[Thomas Dai]

It will be interesting to see in decades to come how many current era jagged edge bunkers gradually morph into a smoother edge variety. Whilst I quite like them ongoing maintenance practices do have a habit of gradually altering things.
atb

[Tom_Doak]

Blake:  I don't see how you call this cool art.  To me it's bad art.  I agree that the playability of the hole is the most important thing, but there is a ton of difference between good art and jagged edges. 

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike Young,


Is it possible to post an example? Re-reading the "single plane" in the title confused me.


Here is an interesting example I found via Google search for "jagged edge bunkers", Streamsong Red #4. Obviously a phosphate mine is man-made, but the soils are native so I think this works as an area that fits for jagged edge bunkers. I personally like the mixture of bunkering styles:

Aerial Overview:



Jagged Edge:






Smooth:



"Streamsong Native"



Looking Back:



http://kristaziogolf.blogspot.com/2015/03/streamsong-red-hole-4.html

[Ian Andrew]

The term "Minimalism" was always a bad one to describe a movement that should have been called something like Neoclassicism. The movement is not about simple forms and zero earth movement. It was a return to older values and ideas on how courses should be designed and constructed.

[Ally Mcintosh]

The term "Minimalism" was always a bad one to describe a movement that should have been called something like Neoclassicism. The movement is not about simple forms and zero earth movement. It was a return to older values and ideas on how courses should be designed and constructed.

Yet minimalism is real, it just shouldn't be attributed to a style.


Eddie Hackett is probably the greatest minimalist of recent years. Which is probably just as well because he didn't really have an eye for building natural looking features.

[Blake Conant]

Blake:  I don't see how you call this cool art.  To me it's bad art.  I agree that the playability of the hole is the most important thing, but there is a ton of difference between good art and jagged edges.

Tom, I don't think those jagged edges are good art.  They're like the Thomas Kinkade or Terry Redlin of golf art.  Liked by a lot of people, but not respected by professionals (outside of maybe their business plan). 


The first two paragraphs of my reply were directed at jagged edge bunkers, but the third was more a statement on golf architecture in general. It sure seems like our industry is prioritizing art way more than it needs to be.  Bad art and good art.  Even projects where there's talent on the crew and the art is objectively good, I see it emphasized more than it should be.  And I think it's great to spend time on cool art and to get those details right, but when I see it emphasized over something like good strategy, or good greens, or even a good routing, well, I see a disconnect in priorities.

[BCrosby]

I'm with Mike.


Minimalism has nothing to do with a particular bunker style. It's about using what the terrain gives you and moving as little dirt as is feasible. Minimalism does not come with a set of rules for how bunkers should look.


Which is not to say that lacey bunker edges can't be done well. It's just that there isn't much "minimalist" about them.


Bob   

[Mike_Young]

Where you don't give the old dead guys enough credit is with their routings, green surfaces and feature locations.


Cheers

Michael N,
I think I give the ODGs plenty of credit.  I just don't go for all of the "micro" that comes out of thin air in some of the descriptions and theories pontificated now days. 

Blake,
You state what I was trying to say much better than myself.

Michael S,
I would prefer not to show examples but it is not in the ones you show and describe.  I am talking about some of these bunkers that just have a plain single plane grass face on the greenside and some dude takes a paint gun and draws a squiggly line and then cuts out an edge.  I hate it.  So many fall for it and think there is more talent there than the guy placing a small pot bunker in the proper place to gather for 30 or forty yards.  It's just fru fru and it cost more to maintain and there is no way it will last. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Random thoughts:


I find it hard to give the ODG much credit for the greens contours, when (in the case of Ross, for example, he may have only personally visited 25% of his designs, and rarely more than once each.)  I saw his field notes for Franklin Hills near Detroit.  No notes on contours.  Basically stuff like "move green down hill for vision" etc.  In fact, very similar to more modern field notes, IHO)


I was also confused by the "single plane" comment. However, I have noticed Doak, CC, etc. have gone away from the Mac "puzzle piece" bunker shaping to long ovals, but never round like RBHarris or Maxwell.  More....well....."turd shaped."  But, that doesn't have much of a ring to it.......and to create interest, the jagged edge.


BTW, in a conversation, it was pointed out to me that RTJ (mostly through Roger Rulewhich) had a lot of jagged edge bunkers from the late 70's on.  Or, at least, ultra squiggley.


Langford wrote an article about what sand bunkers in the Chicago District should look like to mimic nature there, but I haven't found it in my collection yet. If anyone else has it, it might be pertinent, because yes, bunkers are abstract creations, but in naturalist theory, maybe they ought to take their cues from the land around them, which many not contain any sand blowouts.  Or not, maybe you use the Japanese Garden theory, where the viewer is presumed to be able to discern the natural influence on obviously man made elements, and go back to Mac's puzzle pieces to represent blowouts in a much more man made way.

[Jon Wiggett]

I agree 100% Mike


A "minimalist" bunker is when you dig a hole and it looks better as it matures and the native plants or turf makes a random back edge.
This would fit with your general past descriptions of the old dead guys, they didn't do that much, just dig a hole and let the stuff grow back - presto they are geniuses.
The cookie cutter bunkers you describe look bad no matter how fancy the outline or how much paint is used.


Where you don't give the old dead guys enough credit is with their routings, green surfaces and feature locations.


Cheers

+1

[Sean_A]

The term "Minimalism" was always a bad one to describe a movement that should have been called something like Neoclassicism. The movement is not about simple forms and zero earth movement. It was a return to older values and ideas on how courses should be designed and constructed.

If your definition is accurate then minimlaism should be about less earth movement (and what there is mainly centred around greens), finding holes in nature, linked holes (meaning short green to tee walks...so no funny business of walking out of blind shot...if previous green leaves no view of the next fairway so be it...otherwise...alter the routing) and using natural pockets for hazard placement.   

I am not in the least fussed about jagged edge bunkers. I have never been quite convinced by peaks of sand in a parkland setting.  However, if a shaper can pull it off then great...if not...don't try it.  Simpson generally did a good job with this style on non-sandy turf....Dr Mac did not.  To me, a safer bet for non-sandy turf is to hide the sand with rolled over faces.  Strangely enough, Portrush has some the most stunning bunkers in golf...the ones with rolled over faces.

Ciao

[Blake Conant]

I was also confused by the "single plane" comment. However, I have noticed Doak, CC, etc. have gone away from the Mac "puzzle piece" bunker shaping to long ovals, but never round like RBHarris or Maxwell.  More....well....."turd shaped."  But, that doesn't have much of a ring to it.......and to create interest, the jagged edge.

Jeff, I'm curious for you to point out some examples.  And who is "etc." in your comment? After seeing Sand Valley and Cedar Lodge and pictures of Yokohama and Trinity Forest, Bill Coore's stuff has a lot going on.  In fact, the bunkers in Branson have quite a few fingers (which I suppose could be from Jeff Bradley working at Seminole and influencing his style [either consciously or subconsciously]). 


As for how those guys create interest with the bunkers, it's not the edge, it's the third dimension.  Movement on the face, knobs, shoulders, dents, depressions, angle create the interest.  The edge is easy to predict and sort of secondary once you've got a cool shape in which to edge something. 

[Joe Hancock]

Blake,


The cool shape into which an edge is cut into must also relate to other cool shapes, lest the bunkers become this singular design element that tends to grab too much attention, IMO. I'm imagining a big, broad landscape with overly busy bunkers thrust upon it as an example of what I'm attempting to convey.

[Kyle Henderson]

I've always thought of this concept more as "naturalism" when the intent is to build bunkers that look like the resulted from the natural process of erosion, as opposed to "minimalism" in which bunkers (and other features) are just found and incorporated, or at least built/refined with relatively little earthworks.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I've always thought of this concept more as "naturalism" when the intent is to build bunkers that look like the resulted from the natural process of erosion, as opposed to "minimalism" in which bunkers (and other features) are just found and incorporated, or at least built/refined with relatively little earthworks.

Which is really the point I was making above in my reply to Ian's post....


Some of our greatest minimalists have been very average naturalists e.g. Eddie Hackett


And some of our greatest naturalists have built courses that are anything but minimalist e.g. Gil Hanse


With regards to bunkers alone, I get what Mike Young is saying about painted jagged edges on the one plane bunkers - horrible on all counts...


On the other hand, a rough edged bunker hewn out of the natural terrain in the right land formation (i.e. on more than one plane) and in the right soil, takes less time to build and less time to maintain than all other bunker types... So natural looking jagged edge bunkers can also be the most minimal. And can look good.

[Peter Pallotta]

The term "Minimalism" was always a bad one to describe a movement that should have been called something like Neoclassicism. The movement is not about simple forms and zero earth movement. It was a return to older values and ideas on how courses should be designed and constructed.

Ian - an elegantly succinct and useful/helpful definition, thanks. But a question: for you, do those 'older values' in design and construction *necessarily* involve minimal earth moving, or is that low-impact approach only *sometimes* required (and sometimes not)?  In other words, can we get an exemplary neo-classical golf course using modern techniques?

[Tony Ristola]

The term "Minimalism" was always a bad one to describe a movement that should have been called something like Neoclassicism. The movement is not about simple forms and zero earth movement. It was a return to older values and ideas on how courses should be designed and constructed.

Ian - an elegantly succinct and useful/helpful definition, thanks. But a question: for you, do those 'older values' in design and construction *necessarily* involve minimal earth moving, or is that low-impact approach only *sometimes* required (and sometimes not)?  In other words, can we get an exemplary neo-classical golf course using modern techniques?

Instead of "minimalism" I would have thought Maximalism is more fitting as one is trying to maximize existing features, to the maximum.