[cary lichtenstein]

While I haven't played all 100 courses ranked, I find it hard to believe there are 96 courses in North Carolina better than Tobacco Road. It's not my favorite, but it's thought provoking and quite good. My personal favorite is Mid Pines, which is woefully low in these rankings!

I totally agree

[David_Madison]

I don't know if it is true but I have been told by someone who I believe to be reliable that the list is purely based upon how many of the raters have played the course.

My understanding is that they total up the rater points and rank accordingly. A course with fifty raters averaging five points beats a course with twenty raters averaging a score of eight. I've heard that a number of courses hold organized outings for this group - lunch and the whole thing in order to pull in as many of the panelists as possible.

[ChipRoyce]

Over the past 9 years of living here in NC, the list seems mostly concerned with status and conditioning, not architectural merit.


That said, I'm glad this list doesn't take into account 'resistance to scoring', echoing David McLay Kidd's comments about the unintended consequences of rating panels emphasis on course difficulty vs. enjoyment.

[Jay Mickle]

Credibility =

[A.G._Crockett]

This list is hilarious every year, and this year's version is no exception.  Lots of posts above have pointed out obvious bizarre rankings, both high and low.

Whomever this group is, they might do better to alphabetize and call it a list of courses to try to play in NC; as a ranking, it is useless at best.  The rankings of Dormie and Tobacco Road alone render the list useless.

I agree with Sean Arble; Duke and Hope Valley are less than 4 miles apart on the map; they are light years apart as golf courses.  There isn't a person on this site that would play those two and choose Duke as the superior course; not one.  And that's only one example; there a bunch of those in this list every year.

Two comments:


1. We are non-resident members of Hope Valley as noted in other posts I have made.  We joined because we think so highly of the quality of the course.  And therefore I agree that it is superior to Duke.  However, I have played Duke many times and have always enjoyed it and found several of the holes excellent and only a few to be weak from a design perspective.


2. In my time on GCA, the one truth that rises to the level of Kantian is that all rankings are unreliable and should be taken with a grain of salt even if they are fun to debate.

Ira,
Make no mistake about it; Duke is a VERY good golf course.  When I moved back to Durham in September of 2015, shortly after that the guys in my regular foursome from my former club in Georgia came up to visit.  I met them at Dormie Club on their way up, we played Tobacco Road on their way out, and on the day in between, I took them to Duke.  I like the Duke course a lot; I LOVE Hope Valley.

My point, with which I think you agree, is that in ANY comparison of the GCA of Duke vs. Hope Valley, the outcome is more than clear.  I picked those two courses because they are only a few miles apart, because they share essentially the same terrain and conditions (vs the Sandhill courses, for instance), because both routings were done by giants of the profession and both have been worked extensively over the years.  But as to the overall quality of the GCA, there is not much comparison, at least to me.

The only course ranking list in which Duke should be listed above Hope Valley is one for university courses, and that's only because there is no Hope Valley University.  And that's NOT a knock on Duke.

[Ira Fishman]

Oh, if I was not clear, we love Hope Valley too which is why we joined when we bought a potential retirement place in Chapel Hill.  I agree it should be ranked much higher than Duke.  But I am glad you agree that Duke is a very good course.  The only other courses on the list that I have played are PH2, Pine Needles, Mid Pines, and Treyburn.  As much as I admire Hope Valley, I would not rank it higher than the first three, but would put it safely higher than Treyburn even though it also is a very solid course. 


Ira

[A.G._Crockett]

Oh, if I was not clear, we love Hope Valley too which is why we joined when we bought a potential retirement place in Chapel Hill.  I agree it should be ranked much higher than Duke.  But I am glad you agree that Duke is a very good course.  The only other courses on the list that I have played are PH2, Pine Needles, Mid Pines, and Treyburn.  As much as I admire Hope Valley, I would not rank it higher than the first three, but would put it safely higher than Treyburn even though it also is a very solid course. 


Ira

Agreed on all counts.  I'd add UNC-Finley, where I play almost all of my golf now, and especially Governors Club, to courses like Treyburn that are ranked ahead of Hope Valley and a lot of others that in the category of "very nice but...".

[Jerry Kluger]

Hope Valley is no doubt a very good course but how much was lost when they softened the greens with the higher green speeds.  Duke is good but it seems every time I play it, it is soaking wet. Treyburn really surprised me in a positive way and I did not think it was typical Fazio like Hazentree. My only complaint with Governors is they need to get rid of some trees to let the course breathe and widen the playing corridors.  Nicklaus had commented on Pinehurst #2 that part of its greatness is that it is a tree lined course where the trees don't come into play - he should try the same thing at Governors.

[A.G._Crockett]

Hope Valley is no doubt a very good course but how much was lost when they softened the greens with the higher green speeds.  Duke is good but it seems every time I play it, it is soaking wet. Treyburn really surprised me in a positive way and I did not think it was typical Fazio like Hazentree. My only complaint with Governors is they need to get rid of some trees to let the course breathe and widen the playing corridors.  Nicklaus had commented on Pinehurst #2 that part of its greatness is that it is a tree lined course where the trees don't come into play - he should try the same thing at Governors.

Jerry,
I don't think anything was lost at Hope Valley through the recontouring of the greens.  All of the false fronts that were there before are still there, all of the fall offs on the sides that were there before are still there, and all of the levels that were there before are still there.  It plays like a Ross course typically does; relatively forgiving off the tee, and VERY demanding around the greens. 

I played Hope Valley many, many times before and after the Silva redo, and I'll make a bold statement about his work there: If nobody TOLD you that the greens had been recontoured, you wouldn't know it, even if you had played it before and after; his work was that good.  All he did, I think, was to make sure that no pin positions from the old bent grass greens were lost due to the conversion to bermuda.  I promise you that there isn't a putt on that golf course that doesn't require care and attention; if anything, the greens are more difficult, and not because of speed.

[Ira Fishman]

At the risk of committing blasphemy, I think that Pine Needles, and perhaps Mid Pines, are better than PH2. I confess that I played PH2 only once and it was before the restoration whereas I have played PN and MP several times. But even with that caveat, the elevation changes, judicious use of water hazards, and variety of holes at both PN and MP are to me superior.  No, the green complexes are not as complex (redundancy intended), but both PN and MP provide strategic options and challenges that make up for the difference.

[David_Madison]

At the risk of committing blasphemy, I think that Pine Needles, and perhaps Mid Pines, are better than PH2. I confess that I played PH2 only once and it was before the restoration whereas I have played PN and MP several times. But even with that caveat, the elevation changes, judicious use of water hazards, and variety of holes at both PN and MP are to me superior.  No, the green complexes are not as complex (redundancy intended), but both PN and MP provide strategic options and challenges that make up for the difference.

Ira - I'm a member at PN/MP and my sense of things is that while #2 is a "great" or "greater" course than either PN or MP, it is not as enjoyable as either. It's way up there for sure, but MP especially is just soooooo much fun. I believe that MP and PN provide superior playing experiences to anything else in the area. MP has the added advantage of being as visually stimulating as any course I've ever played that's not on a big body of water or in the mountains. My favorite measure of "superior playing experience" is the degree to which I want to go from the 18th green to the 1st tee and do it again. #2 is a cool place with a great vibe, especially because of it's history and place in the game. But day after day I'd so much rather play Mid-Pines and now Pine Needles after the recent work.


Using the same "superior playing experience" measure, my three favorites in NC are Old Town, Roaring Gap, and Mid-Pines, and each shows up way, way too low or I guess not at all on the NC Raters list.

[Sean_A]

David

My three favourites are Old Town (way out front), Roaring Gap and Mimosa Hills...followed very quickly by Tobacco Road and Hope Valley not that far behind.  I really like Mid Pines and think the work improved the course tremendously, but I can't escape the belief that a lot of the new work essentially created bunker left and right on many holes. I wish the sandy areas were placed in a more creative and varied manner. I really would like to have seen waste areas more interactive with central lines of play.  That said, in terms of quality I think Mid Pines is top 5 of the NC courses I have played. It has potential to be better with more tree removal, sorting out the "water hole" and a bit of a rethink on the waste areas. 

Ciao

[David_Madison]

Sean,


I agree that the bunker and waste area placement at MP is all on the sides, and that while there seem to be a number of good opportunities for center line hazards, Kyle Franz didn't put any in. I've spoke with Kyle about this, and his response is that he wasn't designing new holes but instead was restoring what Donald Ross designed.And Ross's design didn't include any center line hazards at MP. (I have the same thoughts and Kyle the same response for Pine Needles as well.)

As for more tree removal, yeah sure, but really carefully so as to not mess up the required shot shaping. The playing corridors are for the most part right for the design of the holes, but there are some places out of play that would benefit. Problem is, to my understanding, that there are now some very strict environmental restrictions (bird habitats and the like) that have put a stop on taking any more out.

And finally, Old Town is my favorite in NC as well. Take away the off-course views and erase the history at #2 and just look at and play #2 and OTC, and I think OTC is the more interesting, fun, varied, and challenging course.

[Sean_A]

David

Yes, I understand that the work was more of a reno rather than a free hand for improvement....just saying.

The trees I have in mind for removal are those which crowd the newly created waste areas. Sometimes sight lines are blocked through the sand areas are blocked or the waste area itself looks a bit crowded with the trees.  For instance, the left side of 18 is crowded with trees which blocks longer range views to greenside bunker and the hotel. 

#2 has nothing on Old Town except history.  The only aspect of Old Town which is slightly suspect is the amount of water, but the design does its best to reduce the effect. 

Ciao

[David_Madison]

Sean


I totally agree with you about #18... the two huge oaks (I think) whose crowns encroach out into the fairway block the beautiful views of the hotel, and from a playing perspective greatly penalize the average or weak player whose shot gets pushed even further right on the canted fairway. But again, no trees can come down without incurring big problems from the government folks so it seems like a moot point.


RE: OTC vs #2, would you agree with me that OTC wins big time over #2 when it comes to its green complexes, specifically their variety and complexity? Not to take away anything from #2 as those greens and surrounds are among the best in championship golf, but OTC's complexes offer so many more types of challenges, along with far more lateral movement and opportunities on approach shots (example - #5) whereas at #2 the object is to get your approach into the heart the green and then just putt out to the hole. Circling back to the subject of this discussion thread, it simply amazes me how disregarded OTC is by this panel year after year.

[Sean_A]

David

Its difficult to be definitive about #2 greens because it is a championship course...two masters are being served which isn't the case for OTC.  I can only say that with limited play on each course I prefer OTC's greens because as you say they are more varied.  Like you, I didn't find putting #2's greens difficult.  The issue is getting on the damn things because many are effectively fairly small and repelling (not as in revolting!) in nature.  One thing we can say on the positive side of #2's greens is they are very distinctive and that is difficult to achieve.

I don't know how people can miss the quality of Old Town.  Far more importantly, for me anyway, Old Town is in my top 5 favourites.  The Carolinas is blessed with a lot of lovely courses.

Ciao   

[rjsimper]

Duke is without question in my mind the worst of the college courses in the triangle.
Lonnie Poole should be in the T100
I can live with Tufts nixing the Creek.
Mountaintop suddenly appearing suggests that the other privates not ranked (Diamond Creek) just haven't been "rated" enough
Dormie should probably be higher, but far more egregious is Tobacco Road, particularly since they have fixed the conditioning issues with the greens by going to champion.


Can someone explain to me how Colonial CC can be ranked ahead of CC of Salisbury in the Piedmont Triad, but unranked in the overall T100?

[Rob_Waldron]

I did a little research about this panel and this is what I found:

In the mid-1990s, the golf industry was booming, and new courses seemed to pop up each spring just as the dogwoods bloomed. As the game’s popularity grew, so did the prevalence of golf course rankings.

Bill Hensley, a veteran public relations executive in North Carolina, grew weary of seeing national publications find a handful of folks to rank the state’s best courses — he didn’t think so few voters brought credibility to the process. So he started his own ratings group.

The North Carolina Golf Panel, founded in 1995, included about 35 “friends of Bill” who knew golf and had played extensively statewide.

Apparently they have now extended into Virginia as well: http://www.virginiabusiness.com/news/article/teeing-off

Not sure what the criteria is for being a Panelist except a "FOB" for NC or a FOK for VA.....

[Anton]

Upon reviewing the list my assumption is the panel is made up of recreational golfers whose criteria for rating is based on the overall club appearance (social hierarchy, conditioning, amenities, etc).  It lacks ranking architectural merits or design variety/creativity.  Of course everyone is most definitely entitled to an opinion, this listing seems extremely biased towards a certain type of course. 


As per my multiple travels to the great state of NC, and having played dozens upon dozens of the courses on this list, having (as examples:) Tobacco, Dormie, Carolina, and Scotch Hall ranked so low takes the credentials right out of this list.  Part of creating a ranking list comprised of a 'panel of judges' is that you take into account multiple personalities and tastes.  This seems to be a group of individuals whom all share the same taste in course (and probably the same flavor of wine as well.)    

[Jerry Kluger]

I had a chance last year to play Carolina Trace which is an RTJ Sr. course and quite good. Front nine has some really good holes as well as two drop shot par 3s which play severely downhill. The back nine was really good with 2 very strong par 3s, a good cape par 5 and some really strong par 4s.  Some of the holes could use some tree removal but overall a bit of a sleeper. 

[Joe Sponcia]

Dormie, r-i-g-h-t.


Sedgefield above Biltmore?


Where's Mimosa?


They accidentally put Raleigh in place of Tigers Eye.


Crow creek is super boring, I would have put Catawba in it's place at the very least.


Lastly, Tobacco Road.  That's just stupid.  I don't like 3 holes, but geez, the rest of the course is arguably one of the more influential created in the last 30 years.

[Joe Sponcia]

At the risk of committing blasphemy, I think that Pine Needles, and perhaps Mid Pines, are better than PH2. I confess that I played PH2 only once and it was before the restoration whereas I have played PN and MP several times. But even with that caveat, the elevation changes, judicious use of water hazards, and variety of holes at both PN and MP are to me superior.  No, the green complexes are not as complex (redundancy intended), but both PN and MP provide strategic options and challenges that make up for the difference.

Ira,


Utter blasphemy.  The greens at #2 are head and shoulders above anything I've ever set foot on.  I've never been so scared to hit an 8 iron into a green.  I love Pine Needles, not as big of a Mid-pines fan, but those greens alone are worth the price of admission.

[Jeff Shelman]

It has been a long time since I lived in North Carolina and I had even less knowledge than I have now.


But, man, that Hope Valley ranking is silly.


About the only thing that they get right is showing some level of love for Raleigh CC. I played there when living there and think it is pretty darn good.

[Steve Lang]

   I've only played about 50 courses in NC, but amused that Southern Pines CC

Is

95 on top 100
30 on courses you can play
3rd on most fun in Sandhills
2nd on Sandhills Good for Sr. Mens
4th on Sandhills Goodfor Sr. Womens
1st on Sandhills Hidden Gems
20th favorite Ross

among the categories
Top 100 in North Carolina
Top 50 You Can Play
Rankings by Region
Most Fun Courses to Play
Best Courses for Senior Men
Best Courses for Senior Women
Hidden Gems
Most Challenging Tee Shots
Top 20 Favorite Ross Courses

and Tot Hill only mentioned in North Carolina Golf Panel's Most Challenging Tee Shots (by course)
Piedmont Triad
2. Tot Hill Farm Golf Club, Asheboro

[JC Jones]

I dunno, kinda feel like they nailed it.

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