[Thomas Dai]

I like Royal Porthcawl but a recent visit to Pennard got me pondering whether it or Pennard is superior. The Confidential Guide has Pennard as 7-7-7-7 whereas it has Royal Porthcawl as 7-8-7-7 although Pennard is highlighted 'at the front' of the recent edition of the CG.

How do they compare (using the conventional routing, not the routing RPGC use for the Seniors Open)?

My 'gut feel' is that Pennard is superior on a hole-by-hole and character/quirk basis although Porthcawl has superior conditioning (money, probably crew size, and more control over their turf as they are not on common land with all the animal and pedestrian issues that common land presents). Is this 'gut feel' confirmed by a bit of quick analysis?

1st Even. It might not be if the 1st green at Pennard were say pushed back and to the right by 50 or so yards though.....but let's go there just now.
2nd N/a as the par-3 2nd at Pennard is being significantly extended/altered at the moment
3rd Porthcawl. A close call as the par-4 at Pennard is a strong hole.
4th Porthcawl - A delightful par-3
5th Pennard - Pennards par-3 is a better par-3 than the par-5 5th is a par-5 at Porthcawl
6th Even (although edging slightly towards Pennard)
7th Pennard
8th Pennard
9th Even. Two very fine holes.
10th Pennard
11th Even. A really hard choice between two very fine holes.
12th Even. Two lessor holes.
13th Even. An unusual par-3 and a tough long par-4.
14th Porthcawl. A better par-3 although Pennards par-4 is a fine hole
15th Porthcawl. Strong par-4 and Pennards par-3 is possibly their weakest hole
16th Pennard every time
17th Pennard every time
18th Even (although edging towards Pennard)

There we go. A quick analysis. 4 to Royal Porthcawl. 6 to Pennard. 8 pretty similar and 1 n/a.

Two terrific places to play though.

Am I being fair/unfair in my analysis?

Thoughts?

atb

[jeffwarne]

Pennard
But what the heck is up with the second hole at Pennard?
they've been working on that hole forever....
A fine par 3 that gets you to 3 tee--


Goodness if the want to work on a hole work on #5 tee shot

[mike_malone]

It literally depends on my mood that day. But I think the quality of the par fours at Porthcawl tips it 51% in its favor.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Still not seen Pennard but it would have to be an awfully fine course for me to consider it superior to Porthcawl.

[Mark Pearce]

For sheer fun, Pennard comfortably.  Conditioning isn't as good, as you say, and there are a couple of head scratchers out there but an awful lot of brilliant golf, too.

[Thomas Dai]

Here are some recent photos of the revised/extended par-3 2nd hole at Pennard. I was advised that although Pennard is on sand this particular spot doesn't drain as well as the rest of the course which is why this particular green has been modified variously over the years.

As an aside, there is quite a bit of eco/dura-bunker work going on.

atb

[David Davis]

I love Pennard, it's a must see multiple times but sorry it's not for RP for me by a long shot. In fact, I believe RP is also underrated. It's been several years since we went there for a pre season gig arranged by Tony which was wonderful but still this is for me also a case of world class vs world class potential. I always feel I can look through maintenance and conditioning but years ago #2 was not in play and now it's still being redone. The turf was and I'm not kidding or trying to be disrespectful but the worst I've ever seen on a golf course, ever.  And before you start chanting my view is tainted from playing great courses, don't forget where I live and trust me I've seen some pretty dire turf conditions. With Pennard if you want to leave it at potential then fine but potential can't win, tie or even compete with world class.


A quick look at what you have there Thomas and I already don't agree on enough holes in the first 6 to more than sway the competition.


Pennard is spectacular and I'd love to go back and will but sorry no contest here for me.


I'll say Pennard is great fun, very good quirk, tons of potential but this is one time on conditioning alone I'd vote no.


If you go to the area, those are both must plays. For me 2-1 in terms of plays for Porthcawl.

[Rich Goodale]

I've never played Porthcawl, but have played Pennard, Southerndown and Aberdovey in tournament conditions (36 hole opens) in the past 5 years and would rank them:


1. Southerndown
2. Aberdovey
3. Pennard


That being said, all are very close and a solid 1* on the Richelin scale (more like 6-7 on the Doak Scale than 7-8).

[Tony_Muldoon]

RP grows on me, but it will always lack that special something that Pennard has in droves.




If I knew exactly what that is I'd tell you. But I know it when I play it.


There's few courses I'd rather play than Pennard and the thought that they can improve it further just makes me smile all the more.

[Ed Tilley]

Am I missing something here? I can't fault you in the last 13 holes - maybe slight differences due to personal preference, although 18 I have a strong preference for RP. However, to have Porthcawl only one up after 5 is a bit ridiculous. There is no way, anything Pennard do on 2 makes it as good as 2 at RP so this shouldn't be N/A. In my mind Rp is 5 up after 5, and probably ends up winning by a couple of holes.


All this qualified of course by only a couple of plays on each so if someone wants to tell me how the holes on the worst land at Pennard are as good as the holes on the best land ar Porthcawl i'm willing to listen.

[Richard Fisher]

Strong agreement with David and others (and please allow for innate Porthcawl member bias...), but RPGC has it, by a good distance. As I've mentioned before on GCA, that is also the dominant view within Wales, where the general ranking of local esteem seems to remain Porthcawl first, then Harlech and then Aberdovey, with Pennard in a decent scrap for fourth place. You may all think we're wrong. But as Tom Doak and others have often mentioned, repeated plays can give you a rather different perspective than occasional visits. Not necessarily better, but different. Anyway, all four remain, in their distinctive ways, wonderful places for a game of golf.

[Thomas Dai]

Some interesting thoughts so far.


Perhaps we could forget about Southerndown and Aberdovey, both of which I happen to rather like, for the moment and concentrate on Pennard and Royal Porthcawl.


Would someone care to select the following -


The 4 best par-3's taken from either course
The 4 best par-5's taken from either course
The 10 best par-4's taken from either course


Atb

[Sean_A]

If you judge courses by character Pennard wins in a landslide...its not even close. If I look at the overall picture I reckon they are a dead heat because conditioning counts for something, but I would choose Pennard something like 7-3 and would only play Porthcawl on a deal...no chance in hell I would pay £130+.  Pennard is firmly in my top 20 Happy 100, Porthcawl is nowhere to be seen and that to me is far more important than any discussion about "quality".

I think Pennard beats RP in just about every facet of design except for the conditioning and the dreaded championship values (read knocking character out of design)...something which I loathe more with each passing day. 

Pennard has

1. More interesting greens.

2. Far more interesting terrain.

3. Pennard has the three of the four best short holes in 5, 11 and 13, but the two worst also with 15 and the disastrous 2nd...I have no idea why the club started mucking with this hole at least 6-7 years ago...complete amateur hour. So the 3s are fairly even. The one par 3 for RP which is outstanding is the 14th; very much a modern style hole which would fit in well at Dornoch.  The others are more about eye candy than quality.  Not bad holes, but nothing special...certainly not the of the character of Pennard's 5, 11 and 13.   

4.  Pennard has the better short 4s in 3, 7, 8, 12 & 14.

5. RP probably pips Pennard (the only real design weakness I see with Pennard) in long 4s because it has more than Pennard, but there isn't a better one than Pennard's 9th.

6. Pennard crushes RP with the par 5s.  Pennard has one of the best sets of long holes in GB&I and RP's are quite ordinary.

This opinion comes with the bias of being a past member of Pennard, but I have played Porthcawl many times over many years in many conditions with the last visit being last year. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean,


I thought Porthcawl's set of threes - with the possible exception of 7 - were elegance personified. Nothing to do with the conditioning.


Ally

[David Davis]

Sean,


I thought Porthcawl's set of threes - with the possible exception of 7 - were elegance personified. Nothing to do with the conditioning.


Ally

7 was a great short 3 as well. A little quirk on this course never hurt, of course you may not be able to use that hole if the Open ever returned but otherwise for the rest of us it's pretty fun.






Sean, clearly the membership contract you signed encourages positive reinforcement. I think I understand why you favor Pennard, which would be the same reason you love courses like NB and Prestwick I'm guessing.


In case anyone is interested here are a couple course tours the clubs have on their websites. In terms of promotion they also say a lot and that's very close to how I personally see the courses. Porthcawl as an outright classic and wonderful links through and through. Penned as a quirky course with a castle on property and some amazing clifftop views. You will note that very little of the course is shown. One only has to ask why...It's not because the course is bad, but more because the conditioning is not strong enough in many areas to warrant showing it, that would be my guess. Sure is beautiful though.


https://www.royalporthcawl.com/course/course-tour/hole/1/


http://www.pennardgolfclub.com/course/flyover/

[Sean_A]

Sean, clearly the membership contract you signed encourages positive reinforcement. I think I understand why you favor Pennard, which would be the same reason you love courses like NB and Prestwick I'm guessing.

I wish!  In a nutshell, while I can still play and walk, I usually prefer courses with strong natural character.  To me, Porthcawl has mostly holes which can be seen on any one of many courses...that is not the case for Pennard.  Porthcawl is a course manufactured on the land whereas Pennard is of the land.  All the humps and hollows which folks profess to love about TOC are present at Pennard....and there is elevation change to boot.  I like Porthcawl as well, but it doesn't possess the characteristics which wow me. Its more of a modern style links which is very good, but somewhat bland here and there. Though I can understand the issues with Pennard's conditioning...it has to take a knock and this is only my only reservation about the course.  As I say, from a design/terrain perspective, it knocks Porthcawl into touch.

I did the matchplay test and its a blowout!

1. P...the terrain is far better than RP
2. RP by default
3. RP
4. P...I will always go for the cool 5 over a 3
5. P...very good 3 compared to a runway par 5 slogging uphil
6. P...superb par 4 compared to another runway fairway
7. P...not discussion necessary
8. P...yet another stunning hole over great land with a cool green VS a dullish 5
9. Half...both excellent holes

10. Half...both very good
11. P...awesome par 3..RP's is good as well, but far more conventional
12. P...by default...RP's 5 is dull
13. Half
14. Half...both very good holes
15. RP...great par 4 of distinction
16. P...nod goes to the par 5 of two very good holes
17. Half...P's 5 is a bit too wild, but RP's 5 is a bit too dull...again
18. P...much the more interesting drive and approach

Pennard...just like soda.

Ciao

[Eric Smith]

clearly the membership contract you signed encourages positive reinforcement.

Did you chrome your palantir, DD?

[jeffwarne]

Sean, clearly the membership contract you signed encourages positive reinforcement. I think I understand why you favor Pennard, which would be the same reason you love courses like NB and Prestwick I'm guessing.

I wish!  In a nutshell, while I can still play and walk, I usually prefer courses with strong natural character.  To me, Porthcawl has mostly holes which can be seen on any one of many courses...that is not the case for Pennard.  Porthcawl is a course manufactured on the land whereas Pennard is of the land.  All the humps and hollows which folks profess to love about TOC are present at Pennard....and there is elevation change to boot.  I like Porthcawl as well, but it doesn't possess the characteristics which wow me. Its more of a modern style links which is very good, but somewhat bland here and there. Though I can understand the issues with Pennard's conditioning...it has to take a knock and this is only my only reservation about the course.  As I say, from a design/terrain perspective, it knocks Porthcawl into touch.


Ciao

+1


I shudder when I see the nonstop tinkering on #2, as if to bring it up to "championship" standard.
I hope they never see the need for expensive conditioning changes on the race to the bottom of homogonization.
A very natural course, sheep and cows grazing(if they still are) "perfect" fairways and greens would spoil the effect.
It's an outdoor game

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean, you keep saying from a design / terrain perspective, Pennard knocks Porthcawl in to touch.


Why are the two the same?


I can understand the terrain argument. But is Pennard clearly better designed than Porthcawl? In the routing? In the macro elements / strategy? In the detail? Porthcawl certainly has some great design and some of the detail is absolutely first class. The detail is where some Braid courses can be let down a little in my experience. It might be my only knock on some of his designs.


Maybe not Pennard. As I said before, I haven't visited.

[Sean_A]

Ally

Its different strokes for different folks. Most folks treat Pennard as holiday golf and therefore inferior to championship golf...its an automatic assumption.  Actually compare the holes, look at how the terrain is used, look at the interesting angles, awkward lies, efficient use of sand, natural appearance and excellent greens.  To me, there is no comparison between the courses, but I come from the true minimalism side of things...which Pennard demonstrates in buckets. 

Porthcawl is very much in the modern mold of design and its very good...until you stack it against some of the recently designed modern links. Porthcawl gets lost between the lack of character and simply not being as well designed as the true modern great seaside courses.  To me its night and day between say Castle Stuart and Porthcawl. The use of bunkers, better thought out par 5s, creating interesting terrain where it doesn't exist, far more interesting greens...I really do think Porthawl is a course out of time.  It is clearly easy to see where very good archies of today when given a good piece of land can build something better than these evolved links with modern ideals and characteristics.   

Ciao

[David Davis]

+1


I shudder when I see the nonstop tinkering on #2, as if to bring it up to "championship" standard.
I hope they never see the need for expensive conditioning changes on the race to the bottom of homogonization.
A very natural course, sheep and cows grazing(if they still are) "perfect" fairways and greens would spoil the effect.
It's an outdoor game

Guys as we were once there together I'm not going to suggest we've seen difference courses but I'd say Brora fits the bill perfectly in terms of natural conditioning but in all honestly Pennard has a long way to go before the conditioning is up to that which I've seen Brora in. I suppose for me it's just too big a leap and not really something you can make excuses for for years and then on top of that always hear the same excuses from everyone that goes.


Sean, have you ever seen it in "good" shape. I mean not great, just good as far as the turf goes?


Jeff, perfect...says the guy living on Long Island, I'm here in continental Europe and perfect, or even great has not yet been experienced here, my daily play is on average perhaps but that average is a far cry from what we saw at Pennard.


Eric Smith....why yes I chrome them both!

[David Davis]

Porthcawl is very much in the modern mold of design

Sean, what's that mean? The course dates back to the 1891.

[Greg Tallman]

Porthcawl is very much in the modern mold of design

Sean, what's that mean? The course dates back to the 1891.

The designer was very forward thinking.

[Thomas Dai]

Porthcawl is very much in the modern mold of design

Sean, what's that mean? The course dates back to the 1891.

.....on a different site though (located towards the headland to the east of the present course).

Conditioning -

Pennard - The conditioning is fine just now!
If not keen on the conditioning, how do posters suggest Pennards conditioning should be improved given that the course sits on a naturally sand-capped area atop cliffs 200'-250' above the sea and has a deep valley cutting through it? Brora, as mentioned above as having better conditioning, and Brora is very well conditioned, although it's generally rippled, is considerably flatter than Pennard and much nearer sea level and has considerably less footfall of walkers and the like across it unlike Pennard which has hundreds of folk walking across it, especially in the summer. What do folks think should/could be done to improve Pennards conditioning?

Royal Porthcawl - I have often wondered whether the conditioning at Royal Porthcawl, and at a few other allegedly top links courses, isn't actually too perfect. OTT so to speak.

Pennard 2nd - As mentioned above, I was advised that the change(s) to the 2nd hole are not specifically aimed at bringing the hole up to 'championship standard' but rather to alleviate drainage issues in this very specific area. I was also advised that ultimately the teeing area will be moved forward so the hole would still be a relatively short par-3. Can anyone elaborate on this?

Atb

[Robert Thompson]

Interestingly, I played RP and Pennard in the same day a few years back with Ian Andrew. Though both of us had high expectations of Pennard, and weren't sure what to expect of RP, both of us thought RP was by far superior.


I wanted to love Pennard, but simply can't see it as a better course than RP. Perhaps it is the consistency of RP that really captured it for me -- it was playable, with excellent and strong holes throughout.


That said, some of the highlights at Pennard reached greater peaks. I thought the par 5 (16?) with the wild canted fairway that kicks to the cliff, was marginal at best, but there was a lot of other really good elements.


I thought it had less of a design than Porthcawl, truthfully, but you've got me thinking this through for the first time in a few years.

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