Cheating?

[Mark Pearce]

I regularly listen to the excellent Irish pdcast, Golf Weekly.  Not high brow but presented with real charm and wit.  This morning I listened to an edition in which the CEO of the Golf Union of Ireland was talking about a new campaign to put an end to artificially maintained handicaps.  He expressed the view that a player who maintained a handicap of 12, when he could or should play off 10 was cheating in exactly the same way as if he claimed a score of 4 on a hole where he had taken 6.  I agree, what do others think?

[Carl Johnson]

Me too.

[Tommy Williamsen]

It absolutely is cheating to have an artificially high handicap. The thing is everyone at the club knows whose handicaps are true and whose are false. They may lose friends but winning seems to be more important.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think it's even worse.


"Sandbagging" is, sadly, very common in the US and is one of those "3rd rail" topics at most clubs.
Where I see it on full public display is at the annual ATT Pro Am in Pebble Beach.


Some card-carrying 12 hdcp somehow manages to shoot 76-77-79-75 and exclaims what a magical experience it all was....


In the US, I see it manifest itself in two ways:


1. PLyers who only enter their poor rounds and conveniently omit their low rounds. They think they're not cheating as they are entering scores, but they are cheating.


2. Players who enter fictitious scores and "pad" their index.


At some GOLF clubs, there are consequences. But, it mostly goes unchecked.

[John Kavanaugh]

The guys who play in 3hrs for fun and 5hrs in member/guests often win. Quit preaching that slow play is the bane of our existence if you want this type of cheating to go away. My friends and I only play as hard as we can, 100% by the rules and putt everything out. Sure we are slow, but we're not cheaters. Bet you would be begging us to cheat if you ever got stuck behind us.

[Ian Mackenzie]

The guys who play in 3hrs for fun and 5hrs in member/guests often win. Quit preaching that slow play is the bane of our existence if you want this type of cheating to go away. My friends and I only play as hard as we can, 100% by the rules and putt everything out. Sure we are slow, but we're not cheaters. Bet you would be begging us to cheat if you ever got stuck behind us.

Jeez, such paranoia....did not think that this thread was about you, your HDCP, your pace of play OR your friends.


This is a global phenomenom and I have never seen a correlation between pace of play and sandbagging, but sounds like you want to put forth an argument...or just vent. Either way, no one is after you here, John....

[John Kavanaugh]

You can not address cheating in member/guest tournaments without addressing the pace of play issues. Any decent golfer can coach an 18 hdcp down to a 14 given time to describe where and how to hit the shot.

[Ian Mackenzie]

You can not address cheating in member/guest tournaments without addressing the pace of play issues. Any decent golfer can coach an 18 hdcp down to a 14 given time to describe where and how to hit the shot.

Not true at all.
50% of participants are from other clubs and they formed their indexes on their own.


They are theoretically verified by the host pro, but it's "garbage in, garbage out".


Screw member/guests. Those are once a year and always are slow as it's very social and guests grind a lot.


What about every week?
What about tournaments done at "net".


Is sandbagging cheating?
Yes, in the worse possible way and even more egregious than claiming a lower score on any one hole.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is "secretly shagging" cheating? Is it cheating for a 9 handicap to spend a week practicing for a big match? Honestly, it kinda is.

[Mark Chaplin]

The first pair in yesterday's competition at Deal played in 3 hours including a stop at the hut. The 16 handicapper shot 85 and the 3 handicapper shot 71. So little correlation between pace or ability.


The winner shot 68 -3 off a 4 handicap.

[John Kavanaugh]

Trying hard only benefits 20% of all golfers but that is enough to beat your ass. Some people think my friends and I cheat because we only post scores where we are playing for a days pay and putt everything out. I bet our handicaps would be lower if we gave putts and took lemon drops.

[Tim_Weiman]

Is "secretly shagging" cheating? Is it cheating for a 9 handicap to spend a week practicing for a big match? Honestly, it kinda is.

So, John, where do you draw the line? At what point does practicing become cheating?

[John Kavanaugh]

We draw the line by only posting scores where we play for enough money that it hurts to lose and play three days a week. Of course we also tend to do well in handicap tournaments because we do well under pressure. 


I think cheating is best defined by why you got beat. I've been guilty of it myself. I hate it, but dammit how did someone as special as me who did my best get beat. The bastard must have cheated.

[John Kavanaugh]

Sadly, I'm the guy in our group who has to tell cheaters that they are no longer welcome to play with us. It can be something as small as course management. Like hitting a wedge layup when you are 200 yds out guaranteeing a bogey net par. Cheating, especially the best most subtle cheating is obvious and distasteful but it ain't that easy to bid sayonara to a bud.

[Steve Lang]

   John,


So handicap enforcement by the MGA (either the Men's Gambling or Gonads Association) takes place both before and after a round?

[Jerry Kluger]

I don't buy that a guy who putts everything out has to take much longer - how many putts will a player miss because the group uses continuous putting - perhaps one per round - but then again he may miss fewer putts because he doesn't get his head all messed up by thinking about it.  I have seen all types of sandbagging and unless there is real enforcement by a handicap committee nothing will stop it.

[Paul Carey]

Back to the question.  A sandbagger is every much a cheater as not counting shots or dropping a ball when the original is lost.  I cannot stand it.   

[BCowan]

It's so liberating playing straight up...   I've been on the right track and didn't even realize it.

[Garland Bayley]

Of course sandbagging is cheating.

I have been beat by net 59, and net 60 in our match play championship over the years at my club. Those are my worst experiences with sandbaggers.
I guess I don't mind too much, because I benefit from the more common occurrence which is vanity handicaps. I see lots of people who have a bad round and insist it not be posted. Also, those that shave strokes and post the result. Your loss my gain.

The handicap system in the US does have it's flaws in allowing social rounds to be posted. Most of my rounds may be social, but there is usually a bet, and being a stingy *******, I hate to lose money, so I think my handicap is fairly accurate. Most GCA competitions have me usually not holding my own until Buda last year where I did quite well. I had been struggling through most of the summer with my handicap going up, but was able to turn it around just before the trip.

[Craig Sweet]

I think some purposely maintain a high handicap for "away matches".  When playing with their regular crowd they all know one another and have their own handicap system.

[Philip Hensley]

I don't buy that a guy who putts everything out has to take much longer - how many putts will a player miss because the group uses continuous putting - perhaps one per round - but then again he may miss fewer putts because he doesn't get his head all messed up by thinking about it.  I have seen all types of sandbagging and unless there is real enforcement by a handicap committee nothing will stop it.

That's never happened in the Prestonian, I'm sure!

[jeffwarne]

It's so liberating playing straight up...   I've been on the right track and didn't even realize it.

 

[Mike_Clayton]

I'd be amazed if there was more than 5% of golfers in Australia who could play to their handicap in a stroke round off the back tees.

[Thomas Dai]

Cheating can go more than one way.

For example, there's sometimes a concern that the same folks playing in the same 2-ball, 3-ball, 4-ball in every competition will be a little on the 'soft' side when it comes to interpreting rules matters....."Do I get free relief here?" says best golf friend to best golf friend. "Sure go ahead".

atb

PS - isn't there a story about Bernard Darwin flooring an opponent with his fist after a match in which he felt cheating had taken place?

[Mike Sweeney]

and took lemon drops.

I did Google it and don't see anything.


What is a "lemon drop"?