[Jason Topp]

I have always been a strong supporter of tree removal on classic courses.  If ever there was a candidate for tree removal, it was on the course used for the WGC event in Mexico last week.

However, the presence of trees made the event vastly more entertaining than most tournaments.  Players had to work the ball different directions to reach ideal landing spots.  Decisions on clubs off the tee were always interesting.  Recovery shots were extremely entertaining.  The trees negatively impacted the condition of the course in some ways - the grass was thin in many areas.  However, I would guess the trees also helped the course play more firm and fast, and the thinness of the grass allowed many options when players were hitting recovery shots out of the woods.

Trees made the course a challenge despite a short effective length, and made greenside play more interesting because of the thinness of the grass. 

I wonder how much the average 15 handicap player would enjoy such a course.  I suspect it would be very difficult. 

Should the orthodox views that tunnels of trees are a problem be softened somewhat in light of the advantages of this venue? 

[JESII]

We should be pursuing a very aggressive segregation of Tour players from the rest of us with respect to Course design/maintenance/setup.


Once the fear that a Tour player may show up at our courses unannounced and shoot 62 is removed from our minds, we can design/prepare/play really interesting and fun courses.


I think it was great seeing them hook and slice the ball around the course...but would caution against thinking that's anything but a bad thing for grass health.

[Dave McCollum]

As I said before, the right guys were playing that course.  The average golfer, different story.

[Tom_Doak]

We should be pursuing a very aggressive segregation of Tour players from the rest of us with respect to Course design/maintenance/setup.


Once the fear that a Tour player may show up at our courses unannounced and shoot 62 is removed from our minds, we can design/prepare/play really interesting and fun courses.

I couldn't agree more.  It would be better for golf would be if architects never watched Tour events at all.


I can't comment more, because I was not watching the event this weekend !

[Jason Topp]

We should be pursuing a very aggressive segregation of Tour players from the rest of us with respect to Course design/maintenance/setup.


Once the fear that a Tour player may show up at our courses unannounced and shoot 62 is removed from our minds, we can design/prepare/play really interesting and fun courses.

I couldn't agree more.  It would be better for golf would be if architects never watched Tour events at all.


I can't comment more, because I was not watching the event this weekend !

Tom:

You should watch a tape if you get the chance.  It was extraordinarily entertaining to watch the recovery shots. 

[Ben Stephens]

We should be pursuing a very aggressive segregation of Tour players from the rest of us with respect to Course design/maintenance/setup.


Once the fear that a Tour player may show up at our courses unannounced and shoot 62 is removed from our minds, we can design/prepare/play really interesting and fun courses.

I couldn't agree more.  It would be better for golf would be if architects never watched Tour events at all.


I can't comment more, because I was not watching the event this weekend !

Tom:

You should watch a tape if you get the chance.  It was extraordinarily entertaining to watch the recovery shots.

Justin Thomas shot under a overhanging branch from 70 yards and slam dunked into the hole is one of the top recovery shots


I have to say I was not impressed with Mickleson because I am not convinced that was the final position of his ball off the tee which was a very wild left. He was bloody fortunate that a spectator claimed that his ball was picked up. But his recovery second shot over very tall trees was impressive but the tour needs to sort out the rules regarding whether the spectator has picked the ball without evidence for most of us it is a definite lost ball and a long walk back to the tee.

[John Kavanaugh]

Anyone can master hitting the ball right, left, high or low. Sadly far is the bastion of youth. I love trees for that very reason, they are God's gift to old men.

[Peter Pallotta]

JK - yes, but I think your post about shade and folliage as a sign/benefit of wealth in a warm climate is even more relevant. I think it probably explains all of America's tree-lined classics as well. No self respecting middle class club member in the 50s would've wanted his course to look like a *farm*. Today's wealthy, on the other hand, are generations enough removed from farm life that they can now allow themselves to find that look *charming*

[MCirba]

No self respecting middle class club member in the 50s would've wanted his course to look like a *farm*. Today's wealthy, on the other hand, are generations enough removed from farm life that they can now allow themselves to find that look *charming*

Peter,

That is a very interesting observation I never heard or considered before but instinctually it feels right.

[Joe Hancock]

No self respecting middle class club member in the 50s would've wanted his course to look like a *farm*. Today's wealthy, on the other hand, are generations enough removed from farm life that they can now allow themselves to find that look *charming*

Peter,

That is a very interesting observation I never heard or considered before but instinctually it feels right.

We'll have to re-address this in the future when we come to the realization that we swapped out all those trees for bunkers in our latest effort to keep the place from being too farm-like.

[V_Halyard]

I have always been a strong supporter of tree removal on classic courses.  If ever there was a candidate for tree removal, it was on the course used for the WGC event in Mexico last week.

Trees made the course a challenge despite a short effective length, and made greenside play more interesting because of the thinness of the grass. 

I wonder how much the average 15 handicap player would enjoy such a course.  I suspect it would be very difficult. 

Should the orthodox views that tunnels of trees are a problem be softened somewhat in light of the advantages of this venue?

Interesting. Jason as you can attest, up here in our little pocket of the midwest, we worked so very hard to clear away the tree tunnels. It sometimes felt we were driving under the Hudson or through the Eisenhower tunnel to colorado ski country. Given the level of mold and mange spawned by our previously overgrown quasi-arboretum, I can't see going back. We did not clear-cut. We did keep a significant number of mature trees necessitating "strategery" but the thinning of our trees and the raising of the canopy have not made the course any easier. The remaining trees and turf are significantly healthier.  Our tee boxes now help deliver more uniformly fair second shots when people play an appropriate tee box. I don't see retreating from our current tree management protocol.

[James Bennett]

Joe Hancock

that is an interesting point.

perhaps we have 4 golf course models,
1. tree lined fairways
2. bunker lined fairways
3. housing/out of bounds lined fairways
4. water lined fairways
with some courses alternating between these features.

And, then we have golf courses with occasional fairway hazards. 

A single strategic tree (or a group of three or five) can be a good feature.
As Tom Doak noted in his 'Anatomy of a Golf Course, trees are not permanent, ie they grow taller over time, and then die.  It depends how critical an individual tree is to the strategy of a hole as to whether it works well over a longer period.

At my home course (Royal Adelaide) I can think of three situations where trees come into play.
On the short par 4 third, a badly out of position shot has to play under/over a tree, or may be blocked out.
On the shortish par 4 eighth, trees block the left side of fairway and must be carried.
On the long par 4 14th, trees defend the left side of green for a second shot from the left.  previously, a very heavily set tree blocked the view here, but that tree was damaged by a storm at Christmas time, revealing a more open canopy tree or two some 40 yards before the green.

I think the use of trees (and all other forms of hazards) is about balance - too much of anything is not a good thing.

James B

[Brent Gremillion]

That place would lose its charm and interest without trees. In my opinion.


I thought many of the classic courses were farms, or prairie when they were first built.

[Carl Rogers]

I saw a number of poorly maintained areas close to the greens.  I postulate that some selective tree removal allowing more light & air would solve that problem.  Not worried about that problem 100 yards away.

[Joe Hancock]

I saw a number of poorly maintained areas close to the greens.  I postulate that some selective tree removal allowing more light & air would solve that problem.  Not worried about that problem 100 yards away.

Out of curiosity, what were the problems, and were they caused by the poorly maintained areas? Did the pros have to take any unplayable lies from these areas? Interesting comment considering the number of shots holed from off the greens at this tournament.

[Jason Topp]

I saw a number of poorly maintained areas close to the greens.  I postulate that some selective tree removal allowing more light & air would solve that problem.  Not worried about that problem 100 yards away.

Out of curiosity, what were the problems, and were they caused by the poorly maintained areas? Did the pros have to take any unplayable lies from these areas? Interesting comment considering the number of shots holed from off the greens at this tournament.

There were a lot of bare spots.  I assume that was due to trees.

[Jason Topp]

No self respecting middle class club member in the 50s would've wanted his course to look like a *farm*. Today's wealthy, on the other hand, are generations enough removed from farm life that they can now allow themselves to find that look *charming*

Peter,

That is a very interesting observation I never heard or considered before but instinctually it feels right.

This resonates with my experience.  As a kid, most of the courses I played were converted Iowa farms that had a single row of trees to separate the fairways.  The trees were never a factor.  It was a treat to play a course with big trees. 

[Sean_A]

We should be pursuing a very aggressive segregation of Tour players from the rest of us with respect to Course design/maintenance/setup.

Once the fear that a Tour player may show up at our courses unannounced and shoot 62 is removed from our minds, we can design/prepare/play really interesting and fun courses.

I couldn't agree more.  It would be better for golf would be if architects never watched Tour events at all.

Cha-ching +2. I have been saying this for years along with the concept of championship courses being a destructive force in architecture. But I don't want to sound anti-tree because this isn't the case.  I like the right trees in the right spots on the right courses. 

Ciao

[Jason Topp]

I have played the course in Tampa used for this week's event.  It features tree lined fairways but is not nearly as tight as that course in Mexico. 

I was very underwhelmed by the course.  I thought it would be considered a mediocre course if it was in the Midwest. 

Perhaps the lesson of Mexico relates more to length and tilted greens than trees.  I am not sure.

[Steve Okula]

The legendary Eddie Adams, former course manager at Saint Andrews and now European Tour agronomist, once told me that not only should there be no trees at all on a golf course, but there should not be any trees visible on the horizon from any point on the course.

[Joe Hancock]

The legendary Eddie Adams, former course manager at Saint Andrews and now European Tour agronomist, once told me that not only should there be no trees at all on a golf course, but there should not be any trees visible on the horizon from any point on the course.

That would drastically reduce the number of golf courses!

[Matt MacIver]

I enjoyed watching the recovery shots and though the fairway width and trees in the rough struck the rough struck the right balance, at least on tv and for them pros. If I was playing there I doubt I'd feel different - give me a fair fairway and no OB and I'll take my chances.

[Jim_Coleman]

    I'm a long ago convert to the tree removal fad for all the usual reasons - better air and sun for grass growth, more options for players, better views and other aesthetics, etc.  However, tree removal comes with a consequence - the course gets easier.
   I have heard tree removal supporters argue that courses don't get easier without the trees.  That is patently absurd, and the Mexico course is just an obvious example.  If one doesn't have a tree to go over, under or around when playing a shot, that shot is, by definition, easier.  I'm not saying the course isn't improved with fewer trees, only that it is easier.  And don't tell me handicaps don't change after tree removal.  I don't buy it.  Makes no sense.  Now, if conditions change after removal - more bunkers, deeper rough, etc. - then the course can keep its difficulty up.

[Joe Hancock]

Jim,


What you say is true. However, let's not forget that for 90+% of the people playing golf, an easier course is a better course, and more fun. Us duffers punching out of jail all day long is miserable....I'd rather go fishing.


The problem with the joy we got out of watching the pros have to manufacture recovery shots at the WGC event is people(like sheep) want to do what they see on TV...so they plant more trees. Not good for the masses...

[Ira Fishman]

I also would argue that heavily treed courses slow down play. We do not have marshals and galleries following every ricochet off of branches and limbs.

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