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A.G._Crockett

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Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #150 on: March 06, 2017, 07:23:06 PM »
:)
The challenge of thinking that golf is a sport like any other: with my 10 year old son, I can now no longer play a regulation 4 quarters of basketball, can't do anything more than *stroll* through 2 halves of a soccer game, can indeed play a few innings of baseball -- but only if I pitch and/or don't have to make too many throws in from right field, can only really keep up in tennis if we're playing not on a court but against the wall of the local highschool, won't even consider snow boarding or skiing, and might be able to swim two whole laps of the pool at the YMCA without drowning. But like pro golfers all around the world, I *can* play golf exactly the way it was intended, walking 18 holes while carrying my bag and teeing it up and driving it and hitting approaches and recovery shots and putting out, all in about 3 1/2 hours if I'm playing with a couple of friends. Now, what's that about? :)

Pete,
I don't think anybody ever claimed that there was much of an aerobic element to golf; ten minutes at any club on Saturday morning will certainly verify that!  That you can play golf without puking isn't surprising, but that's not the issue, is it?  The issue is what you might do differently IF playing golf was how you paid the mortgage, put food on the table, and provided for your old(er) age.

I'm pretty sure you would agree that with certain changes, you could play at least marginally better golf.  Could be instruction, could be more practice, could be technology, but whatever it is, you'd chase it IF your "career" depended on it.  In fact, at whatever your REAL career is, I imagine that you look for ways all the time to be just a little bit better, no?

As always, it hits me right in the funny bone that so many of us seem to have such a hard time understanding why athletes looking for those same small margins in their VERY brief careers turn over every rock in the process.  They have mental coaches, they use technology, and they try to take care of and improve the function and stamina of their bodies.  It just isn't that mysterious.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #151 on: March 06, 2017, 07:54:16 PM »
:)
The challenge of thinking that golf is a sport like any other: with my 10 year old son, I can now no longer play a regulation 4 quarters of basketball, can't do anything more than *stroll* through 2 halves of a soccer game, can indeed play a few innings of baseball -- but only if I pitch and/or don't have to make too many throws in from right field, can only really keep up in tennis if we're playing not on a court but against the wall of the local highschool, won't even consider snow boarding or skiing, and might be able to swim two whole laps of the pool at the YMCA without drowning. But like pro golfers all around the world, I *can* play golf exactly the way it was intended, walking 18 holes while carrying my bag and teeing it up and driving it and hitting approaches and recovery shots and putting out, all in about 3 1/2 hours if I'm playing with a couple of friends. Now, what's that about? :)

Pete,
I don't think anybody ever claimed that there was much of an aerobic element to golf; ten minutes at any club on Saturday morning will certainly verify that!  That you can play golf without puking isn't surprising, but that's not the issue, is it?  The issue is what you might do differently IF playing golf was how you paid the mortgage, put food on the table, and provided for your old(er) age.

I'm pretty sure you would agree that with certain changes, you could play at least marginally better golf.  Could be instruction, could be more practice, could be technology, but whatever it is, you'd chase it IF your "career" depended on it.  In fact, at whatever your REAL career is, I imagine that you look for ways all the time to be just a little bit better, no?

As always, it hits me right in the funny bone that so many of us seem to have such a hard time understanding why athletes looking for those same small margins in their VERY brief careers turn over every rock in the process.  They have mental coaches, they use technology, and they try to take care of and improve the function and stamina of their bodies.  It just isn't that mysterious.

Quick twitch and aerobic go hand-in-hand. Try running intervals and then going to the range. You'd be surprised.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #152 on: March 06, 2017, 08:03:34 PM »
AG - once again I am defeated and made mute by your logic. What- did you *train* in it?
Kyle - I usually try moving up a set of tees instead. Slow twitch and caffeinated seems to work fine from the whites...

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #153 on: March 06, 2017, 08:04:23 PM »
Peter,

Every one of my sunrise rounds can attest to that!
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #154 on: March 07, 2017, 08:20:12 AM »
AG - you've changed the issue presented by Tom in the opener though...or at least it's been changed. Certainly nobody disputes the argument that a little fitness is good.


Tom presented the suggestion that golfers will have shorter careers now that they are training like world class athletes.


I'm curious, since you're position seems to be that a little more fitness training is always going to be better than a little less...would you think Rory and Jason would benefit by more time in the gym considering their recent tweaks?

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #155 on: March 07, 2017, 08:56:24 AM »
would you think Rory and Jason would benefit by more time in the gym considering their recent tweaks?


Two other pieces that are missing (may have been covered above) are nutrition and diversity of sport.


  • Nutrition - The amount of information today on diet and nutrition is amazing. With a simple LoseIt.com app and a "forks over knives" lifestyle change, I am personally back to my college weight. All these guys have access to sports nutrition at the highest levels, so their physical recovery can be greater/quicker when they do get injured. However...
  • Diversity of Sport - In the old days, we (Nicklaus, Sweeney....) played lots of sports, some with seasons. Your back had time to recover from golf when you played basketball in the winter. Now the intense focus on one sport at an early age 24/7/365 is the norm, and I believe this is one of the reasons you see more injuries earlier. I never had the talent anyway, but a focus on one sport would have made me a better player in that one sport. Combined with fitness geared to that one sport, I believe that many pros and amateurs in golf and other sports are just going to burn out physically and mentally at an earlier age. As the Tiger and younger generation matures, I would guess that less and less of Regular Tour stars continue in that capacity on the Senior Tour.
Are there Golfers who are good all around athletes? There are some naturally gifted athletes who can cross over, but the days of the best athlete being the best in a sport is probably over. Is LeBron James a great "all around" athlete?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reOmMInfzmE
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Peter Pallotta

Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #156 on: March 07, 2017, 09:06:43 AM »
Mike - That's a trade off every young golfer and athlete seems happy to make: a much shorter career but with enough money made to keep 3 generations rolling in it...

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #157 on: March 07, 2017, 09:34:37 AM »
Mike - That's a trade off every young golfer and athlete seems happy to make: a much shorter career but with enough money made to keep 3 generations rolling in it...


Your use of the word "EVERY" is a loaded topic:


http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/estimated-probability-competing-professional-athletics


"Professional opportunities are extremely limited and the likelihood of a high school or even college athlete becoming a professional athlete is very low."
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #158 on: March 07, 2017, 02:41:40 PM »
AG - you've changed the issue presented by Tom in the opener though...or at least it's been changed. Certainly nobody disputes the argument that a little fitness is good.


Tom presented the suggestion that golfers will have shorter careers now that they are training like world class athletes.


I'm curious, since you're position seems to be that a little more fitness training is always going to be better than a little less...would you think Rory and Jason would benefit by more time in the gym considering their recent tweaks?

John,
That's not exactly my position.  EXACTLY my position is that properly selected fitness training is better than not including some sort of fitness routine at all.  How much benefit varies widely from player to player, of course.  In short, I can't see any way that any player is worse off by improving fitness, flexibility, and functional strength.  I am NOT talking here about "body building" in any way.

As to Rory and Jason, I have ZERO idea what they are doing.  Until I learn otherwise, I am going to assume that both are under the supervision of a personal trainer, by some name or other, and that they have pretty specific programs and goals in mind.  Both seem like smart guys, and both have a lot at stake, so I assume that they are being careful in their workouts, whatever those workouts might be.

Likewise, I have zero idea what caused their recent injuries, or what their doctors and trainers are doing about it, so I'm not going to speculate about that.

But I'll say this: I reject Tom's original premise 100%.  "The more competitive a sport golf becomes, and the more it attracts real athletes, the more they'll have to push themselves and the more likely their careers will be shortened ... by injury, or just being overtaken by younger and stronger athletes.  That's how sports works.  We'd better get used to it."  IMO, proper training, LENGTHENS careers, not shortens careers.  Tom Brady's off-season training is incredible, and he's playing better football at 39 than he did at 29.  There are lots more examples; I won't bore you with a long list, but suffice it to say that if Tom and the rugby player he quoted are right, the every pro sports team, every D1 college team, every good high school team, and almost all professional individual athletes are wrong.  I don't like that math.

I posted this much earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating: We only know what DID happen, not what WOULD have happened had Woods and Nicklaus reversed their training methods.  Back trouble was predicted for Woods before he was 25; without his remarkable fitness, maybe he blows up long before he did; of course, we'll never know.  Nicklaus had good longevity (though I am FAR less impressed than most with that aspect of his career), but perhaps if Nicklaus had been more fit, he might have won even more for even longer; again, we'll never know. 

BTW, I know this sounds like heresy, but take away a lightning-in-a-bottle back nine on a unique golf course on Sunday in 1986, and Jack wins his last major in 1980 at age 40.  On top of that, he only had two other wins on Tour in between age 40 and 46, and none after 1986.  That IN NO WAY diminishes what Nicklaus did in the 1986; I was there that afternoon, and it is one of my greatest sports memories.  But I don't think it's great evidence for longevity, or the efficacy of his training methods, or much else except an iconic figure turning back the clock for a weekend.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #159 on: March 07, 2017, 03:21:05 PM »
And you think someone in this thread, or any other, disagrees with your EXACT position?


You're changing the argument to fit. The position presented was "like world class athletes".


There are so many aspects to golf that simply do not require the strength training and so few hours in the day that something has to give...including the body in some places.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #160 on: March 07, 2017, 05:18:52 PM »
..

There are so many aspects to golf that simply do not require the strength training...

I am not to understand (as my Ethiopian students used to say). Flexibility requires strength training?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #161 on: March 07, 2017, 05:39:53 PM »
And you think someone in this thread, or any other, disagrees with your EXACT position?


You're changing the argument to fit. The position presented was "like world class athletes".


There are so many aspects to golf that simply do not require the strength training and so few hours in the day that something has to give...including the body in some places.

Jim,
I haven't changed a single thing in this thread, so let me be clear: 

1. Either golfers are "world class athletes" or they aren't; I happen to believe that walking 25 miles in a 4 day period while periodically stopping to swing a club at speeds well in excess of 100 mph to hit a ball with incredible precision well enough to be "world class" is not only difficult, but highly athletic AND physically demanding.

2. The idea that golfers, or any other athletes, who train "like world class athletes" will somehow shorten their careers by doing so is an absurd idea, with absolutely zero evidence to support it and a mountain of data that points in the opposite direction.  Everything that we know about the human body and how it ages indicates that activity in general, and resistance training in particular, are key pieces in fighting the aging process.  Everything that we know about athletics tells us that stronger, fitter, more flexible athletes are better athletes, and better for longer.  I could go on, but I think you probably can figure out where I stand...

3. The use of Woods and Nicklaus absolutely, 100% does NOT support the idea that NOT training "like a world class athlete" is a means of achieving longevity.  I believe that the longevity of Nicklaus may, in fact, be overstated, and it's also possible that Woods GAINED longevity by training "like a world class athlete".  There is just no way to know in either case.

4. There IS something that experts point to that research indicates significantly increases the possibility of career-threatening injuries that we see more and more these days, and it isn't fitness training.  Instead, it's specializing in one sport, and one sport only, too early in life; overuse syndrome.  THAT might tell us more about Woods and Nicklaus than anything else; Nicklaus played baseball and basketball all the way thru high school, while Woods was hitting golf balls on the Mike Douglas Show when he was 5 years old.  That's a better suspicion, IMO, than any nonsense having to do with fitness for those two career trajectories, but we'll never know that for sure, either.

Hope that clears up where I stand on the original premise of the thread. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 05:41:39 PM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Peter Pallotta

Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #162 on: March 07, 2017, 09:40:30 PM »
A good thread, and yet most/all of us have missed what I think TD was really getting at, ie the fact that he might have to admit defeat in his career-long fight against designing 7000++ yard golf courses.
Peter
PS Because I like Tom and wish him continued success, I think he should make a virtue out of necessity and build the toughest, smartest, wickedest, most naturalistic 7,900 yard golf course the world has ever seen.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 09:47:46 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #163 on: March 07, 2017, 10:12:27 PM »
...
PS Because I like Tom and wish him continued success, I think he should make a virtue out of necessity and build the toughest, smartest, wickedest, most naturalistic 7,900 yard golf course the world has ever seen.

I think he tried that with the Wicked Pony project that went under. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #164 on: March 07, 2017, 11:37:33 PM »
 8)  Peter, TD has far exceeded that yardage with The Loop :o
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #165 on: March 10, 2017, 10:41:18 PM »
With a Masters degree in Exercise Physiology and Biomechanics I have to admit to been humoured by a lot of this thread......which left me wondering ....is this what REAL golf course architects also think when reading some of our comments on this site🤔
Having spent this morning in the splendid and knowledgeable company of half of the OCCM group at Shady Oaks on site of their superb project, I am left convinced that my passion for golf course architecture brings me a lot of pleasure but my knowledge is very limited and all I Really have is an opinion of what I like.......just expressing some thoughts😊

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #166 on: March 10, 2017, 11:33:21 PM »
Here is a series of blog posts that address aging in professional golf. His four year study suggests "the aging curve for this sample is basically flat from the age 21 to age 34, with a significant year-by-year decline beginning in the late 30s."

https://golfanalytics.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/the-aging-curve-for-pga-tour-golfers/
https://golfanalytics.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/the-aging-curve-for-pga-tour-golfers-part-ii/
https://golfanalytics.wordpress.com/2013/10/29/the-aging-curve-for-pga-tour-golfers-part-iii-using-bayesian-prior/

https://golfanalytics.wordpress.com/2014/03/13/an-aging-curve-for-putting/


Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #167 on: March 11, 2017, 12:13:53 AM »
Here is a series of blog posts that address aging in professional golf. His four year study suggests "the aging curve for this sample is basically flat from the age 21 to age 34, with a significant year-by-year decline beginning in the late 30s."

https://golfanalytics.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/the-aging-curve-for-pga-tour-golfers/
https://golfanalytics.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/the-aging-curve-for-pga-tour-golfers-part-ii/
https://golfanalytics.wordpress.com/2013/10/29/the-aging-curve-for-pga-tour-golfers-part-iii-using-bayesian-prior/

https://golfanalytics.wordpress.com/2014/03/13/an-aging-curve-for-putting/




Which one would expect .
Almost identical figures would be seen in most sports,the only clear variable being the age at which the significant decline commences.
In Football...or soccer...the decline begins just past thirty and if the NFL almost non determinable  statistically due to the massive loss of players secondary to injury.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #168 on: March 11, 2017, 10:50:15 AM »
With a Masters degree in Exercise Physiology and Biomechanics I have to admit to been humoured by a lot of this thread......which left me wondering ....is this what REAL golf course architects also think when reading some of our comments on this site🤔



MW-P,
Yep, but bless those archies who continue to post anyway. 


Having seen you swing at Pine Dunes some years ago now, I seem to remember what i'd call some "high efficiency,"  with enviable but still human results.  I assume this is part of or follows from your educational path.  So, I ask, did you make a distinction as a young golfer between "smart training to be" and just excessive "practicing like a pro?"
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #169 on: March 11, 2017, 03:16:31 PM »
With a Masters degree in Exercise Physiology and Biomechanics I have to admit to been humoured by a lot of this thread......which left me wondering ....is this what REAL golf course architects also think when reading some of our comments on this site🤔



MW-P,
Yep, but bless those archies who continue to post anyway. 


Having seen you swing at Pine Dunes some years ago now, I seem to remember what i'd call some "high efficiency,"  with enviable but still human results.  I assume this is part of or follows from your educational path.  So, I ask, did you make a distinction as a young golfer between "smart training to be" and just excessive "practicing like a pro?"


I would like to think that I was aware of the benefits of gym work before it became en vogue.
Whilst playing college golf I was in the gym alone and continue to spend a lot of time there to maximize the work done on the range.....I just love this stuff....gym work, mechanics and sports psychology, but in 1985 the world wasn't ready to listen and so I went to dental school rather than beat my head against what was back then a brick wall.
I couldn't get college coaches to listen ,they were still in the weights hurt golfers mode of thinking😩😩 which really isn't true, it just has to be smart weights and gym work.
When people use Rory as an example of excessive training.....I have to laugh....there are few more respected fitness experts in the world better than his, so I am totally comfortable in the knowledge that he is maximising his time in the gym and not doing anything detrimental to his game.


I don't know if that really answers your specific question?
But I tend to think especially over the past ten years I have blended the gym work and the range work in a manner that is ideal to match my desire to be the best player I can be.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #170 on: March 11, 2017, 06:25:48 PM »
Perhaps I didn't write my opening post clearly enough.


My new friend's premise was that pro golf careers would be shorter than in the past, because golf is becoming more physical.  It's not that training hurts the players, directly ... but they are training so that they can put much more stress on their bodies than the last generation did, with a different type of swing. 


Jack Nicklaus used to say that he never swung at more than about 85% of his capacity, because he valued consistency.  Do any of today's top players do the same?  I don't think so ... they swing harder, because the equipment has changed to allow it, and because they see everyone else doing the same and feel like they have to follow suit.  And that would cause them to get hurt more often, and to either retire earlier, or just to be pushed aside by younger, stronger guys, like in every other sport. 


The best golfers used to be competitive until their early 40's.  Do any of you experts foresee that outcome for Rory or Dustin or Jason Day?


P.S.  I agree that specialization is also a factor that will hurt longevity ... both from the physical standpoint and the mental.




Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #171 on: March 11, 2017, 06:47:04 PM »

The best golfers used to be competitive until their early 40's.  Do any of you experts foresee that outcome for Rory or Dustin or Jason Day?



Tiger was better when he was a lonely bachelor. Women and money are a much bigger problem that doing squats!! And I am serious.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #172 on: March 11, 2017, 07:11:08 PM »
Perhaps I didn't write my opening post clearly enough.


My new friend's premise was that pro golf careers would be shorter than in the past, because golf is becoming more physical.  It's not that training hurts the players, directly ... but they are training so that they can put much more stress on their bodies than the last generation did, with a different type of swing. 


Jack Nicklaus used to say that he never swung at more than about 85% of his capacity, because he valued consistency.  Do any of today's top players do the same?  I don't think so ... they swing harder, because the equipment has changed to allow it, and because they see everyone else doing the same and feel like they have to follow suit.  And that would cause them to get hurt more often, and to either retire earlier, or just to be pushed aside by younger, stronger guys, like in every other sport. 


The best golfers used to be competitive until their early 40's.  Do any of you experts foresee that outcome for Rory or Dustin or Jason Day?


P.S.  I agree that specialization is also a factor that will hurt longevity ... both from the physical standpoint and the mental.


Tom, This response actually beat me to the punch.
I agree 100%.....my humble opinion is that even with all the gym work, the back/spine just is Mit designed to cope with the modern torque placed upon it and the swing speeds associated with that torquing.


The great gym experts out there...like Steve Mcgregor ...are aware of the stress placed upon the spinal area with these swing speeds and as such the gym programmes are based upon spinal stability as much as is possible.
Hence they stress glute strength and flexibility, hip mobility and strength, spinal muscle flexibility/strengthening exercises all in an effort to limit injury.
Again in my opinion eventually there is that point where the back/spine/support frame eventually just gives.
If someone is predisposed to such injuries their respective career ends earlier than somebody else.
So the premise that the modern game or swing or swing speeds will result in more "short" careers is in my opinion most probable.
Of course there will be outliers which people will be able to point to, but it will be interesting to see what happens.


People have already forgotten about the likes of Anthony Kim who saw his career end way way too early after several surgeries that left him unable to play.
Forget the rumors of settling for insurance checks and lavish lifestyles, I know Anthony and he flat out couldn't play or practice anymore at the level necessary to make a living.
I fear he and Tiger are just a drop in the proverbial ocean of players who will see short careers secondary to modern day swing speeds.
That been said kudos to the wonderful fitness guys out there who continue to create wonderful routines to maximise spinal strength and stability to minimise the injuries
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 07:31:21 PM by Michael Wharton-Palmer »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #173 on: March 11, 2017, 07:17:33 PM »

Tiger was better when he was a lonely bachelor. Women and money are a much bigger problem that doing squats!! And I am serious.


Well, you could call them a problem ... or a help.  Depends on the woman.  [Or, I suppose, the amount of money.]


I do remember years ago, when Tiger was a young player being predicted to shatter all records, a lone voice in the wilderness who said that the toughest thing for him would be that in the modern era, it would be unlikely he'd find a wife as supportive as Barbara Nicklaus or Valerie Hogan, or others of previous generations.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #174 on: March 11, 2017, 10:54:05 PM »

Tiger was better when he was a lonely bachelor. Women and money are a much bigger problem that doing squats!! And I am serious.


Well, you could call them a problem ... or a help.  Depends on the woman.  [Or, I suppose, the amount of money.]


I do remember years ago, when Tiger was a young player being predicted to shatter all records, a lone voice in the wilderness who said that the toughest thing for him would be that in the modern era, it would be unlikely he'd find a wife as supportive as Barbara Nicklaus or Valerie Hogan, or others of previous generations.


There is no evidence that Tiger's wife was not supportive of him. There is abundant evidence that he was not supportive of her.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 10:56:27 PM by Ira Fishman »

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