Golfers as Athletes

[Jim Nugent]

Do you need the muscle mass to hit the ball long? I don't think so. My recollection is that Jamie Sadlowski was not a muscled long drive champion. That skinny Howell character was near the top of driving distance when he came on tour.
I also recall Tiger's teammates at Stanford marveling at his ability to sweep the ball without a hint of divot.

It just seems to me in my non-expert knowledge that training for speed is not training for muscle mass.

My non-expert knowledge tells me the same thing.  Chi-Chi Rodriguez was one of the longest hitters on tour in his day, IIRC, and weighed around 115 pounds. 

[John Kirk]

Curiously, the one course that most people agree favored the long ball hitter was Augusta National, and as the course has been modified over the past 10 years, it appears to only favor left handed power players, as Mickelson and Bubba Watson have won 5 Masters since 2005.

A short-hitting (relatively) right-handed player has dominated the Masters the last 3 years.

Yes.  I was too brief in my description, since part of what I was trying to say is that medium length drivers have won a fairly high percentage of recent Masters tournaments.  In general, I think Augusta National now emphasizes finesse and accuracy, over distance, more than it used to.  I think that is generally agreed upon. 

[Tom_Doak]

In general, I think Augusta National now emphasizes finesse and accuracy, over distance, more than it used to.  I think that is generally agreed upon.

Not generally agreed upon by the seniors who are past champions.  They generally believe it's more punishing of short hitters than ever before.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I also recall Tiger's teammates at Stanford marveling at his ability to sweep the ball without a hint of divot.

I don't know the basis for this...I watched Tiger play several times at Stanford (my office was in Palo Alto), and that description of his iron play couldn't be more wrong.

[Jim Nugent]

I also recall Tiger's teammates at Stanford marveling at his ability to sweep the ball without a hint of divot.

I don't know the basis for this...I watched Tiger play several times at Stanford (my office was in Palo Alto), and that description of his iron play couldn't be more wrong.

Jack Nicklaus wrote in one of this golf books ("Golf my Way"?) that he, Jack, hit irons that way. 

Perhaps Tiger had the ability, but didn't always choose to use it?  He probably read the same Nicklaus book as I. 

[Rick Emerson]

if you look a Sam Snead's swing it was fuildity in motion, not sl with Tigers.Therein lies the rub, restraining the hip turn and excessive shoulder turn,

This is the truth right here. The modern golf swing puts too much strain on the back and knees by limiting hip turn. It also doesn't generate as much power unless you do lots of stretching and lift lots of weights. All that together is a recipe for injury. Both Bubba and Phil hit it a mile without hard core weight lifting because they use a more old school swing. The old guys all used more timing and leg action and turned their hips and shoulders freely. Pitching, hitting, tennis and other sports all use similar actions to get power. It's the golf swing not the lifting causing the problems.

[Steve Lang]

I have to look up some Driving Stats back in 1986 to determine where JN was ranked.  I found a lot of stats about everyone else, but not JN.  Some thing tells me that he was barely more than the average Tour Pro back in 86.

In '85 he was ranked 47th at 265.4 - about 5 yards longer than average and 14 short of the leader. Kyle Stanley holds that position in 2017 at  an average drive of 298.5, just under 6 yards longer than average and 17 short of the leader.

I also seem to remember Jack touting using his 3-wood a lot as he didn't need to use driver and being able to go long when really needed, the ol' 80% swing thing...  stats are nice reference points and those "47th" place player stats are interesting in their similarity... but they don't tell the whole story

[Mike_Young]

As to whether the long hitters will be around in their 40's ,.....today they have to know how to hit driver and wedge.  Their longevity will depend on how well they can hit 5,6,7 irons.  Int eh JN days even the long hitters had to hit all clubs and that just isn't the case any more.

[JESII]

No no no...according the Mark Broadie, the most valuable shot to work on is the one from 225...

[jeffwarne]

No no no...according the Mark Broadie, the most valuable shot to work on is the one from 225...

isn't that a 42 wedge?
You know... the second on a long par 5?

[Carl Nichols]

All these old guys you are using as evidence did not grow up under the threat of dying by eating a peanut. My contention is that we are now raising weak children that will become weak adults. It seems like common sense. Do any of you really believe any of these millennial superstars are going to be around in 20 years? This is simply a cause of societal evolution evident in every occupation, athletic or not.

http://www.kcra.com/article/student-with-deadly-peanut-allergy-nearly-killed-by-fraternity-in-hazing-incident/9087316

[Peter Pallotta]

No no no...according the Mark Broadie, the most valuable shot to work on is the one from 225...

If you can get that shot within 20 feet, statistics show you are much more likely to score well than those who need to lay up from that distance. The typical high-handicap golfer, stats show, loses on average 6-to-8 shots a round by not being able to get it within that 20 foot circle. It is the most important shot in golf; the average golfer can go from a high handicapper to a mid handicapper overnight if he would simply practice the 225 yard shot.

[Mike_Young]

A 500 yard par 4 is a driver and a edge or 9 iron for the long hitters.  Rough is not an issue for that type of strength and loft...

As for the high handicapper practicing the 225 yard shot.....practicing and hitting it are two different things. 

Making 5 foot putts allow one to play much longer than anything else...am or pro

[John Kavanaugh]

Can't every golfer in the country find somewhere to practice putting for free on a regulation green? How many straight days would you have to show up at the same public course and practice putting before they asked you to pay? There are no excuses for any healthy person to suck at this game.

[BCowan]

Can't every golfer in the country find somewhere to practice putting for free on a regulation green? How many straight days would you have to show up at the same public course and practice putting before they asked you to pay? There are no excuses for any healthy person to suck at this game.

That was good.  It's a good way to meet new Buds too.  My weekend morning UofM game started with evening practice putting with a putting aid.   Spontaneous order is a wonderful thing.  Practicing your putting is like eating your vegetable. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I just couldn't introduce myself to someone using a putting aid. Are you talking "as seen on tv" or just a couple of tees?

[BCowan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw76VVLFvbQ

It has tees in it to hold it in place  .  The funny thing is the guy is a stick and makes 3-5 birdies a round.  I think it was just a good way for him to hustle me in skins. 

[Mike_Young]

Can't every golfer in the country find somewhere to practice putting for free on a regulation green? How many straight days would you have to show up at the same public course and practice putting before they asked you to pay? There are no excuses for any healthy person to suck at this game.

That was good.  It's a good way to meet new Buds too.  My weekend morning UofM game started with evening practice putting with a putting aid.   Spontaneous order is a wonderful thing.  Practicing your putting is like eating your vegetable.

Ben,
Most people I know that use purchased putting aids have those inflatable dolls in their front seat unless you are Larry David and you just hire a hooker to ride. 

[BCowan]

Mike,

  That must be a southern thing, I've yet to encounter an inflatable doll   

[PCCraig]

Tiger Woods introduced a new generation of athletic kids to the sport of golf. Before Tiger, the bigger, more athletic kids grew up playing football, hockey, basketball, baseball, etc. from an early age through high school. Once Tiger made golf more *cool* some of those athletes took to golf instead, and we are now seeing that byproduct on Tour now. Augusta might have been "Tiger-proofing" their course but what they were inadvertently doing was proofing their course for a new generation of athlete-golfers.


There is no doubt that the average Tour player now is bigger, stronger, and has a more violent swing than just 20 years ago. To me, it seems like Golf is going the way of Tennis. Where kids are playing a hard driving (especially on joints), physical sport that used to be more about finesse and now is all about power and speed....but players are "over the hill" past 30 or 35.


A person like Jason Day doesn't strike me as having the staying power as compared to other players like Ricky Fowler or even Dustin Johnson. DJ may hit it a long way, but he isn't bulky at all...he's mostly just tall/long and very flexible. I think you have to assume issues with guys like Rory who have bulked up a frame that isn't designed for a bunch of muscle and a repetitive, hard, swing.


So, I think Jason Day might be closer to Tiger, and Ricky Fowler might be the perfect example of a modern day Langer (in 20 or 30 years).

[Mike Bodo]

Wide Receivers and Offensive Linemen both play the same game and train in similar manors but they have very different goals they're trying to achieve through their training and focus on such. The same can be said for comparing players pre Tiger and post Tiger. The fact that older guys have been able to embrace fitness as a tool to prolong their career has little to do with how Tiger and the younger generation have taken to fitness training and is not applicable when assessing the comments Tom's rugby friend made.  The focus of the younger players have been on building explosion & power, which when applied to the body during physical activity has the potential to add heightened levels of strain. No only can this contribute to shorter competitive longevity, but I believe we're currently seeing it manifest itself in higher preponderance towards injury. Guys like Jason Day and Rory seem to be struggling with this effect. The professional game has become one where you need to get what you can while you can, because the odds of your career lasting decades upon decades have greatly diminished.

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. Tiger, Jason Day and Rory have developed swings that place an exorbitant amount of stress on the spine and torso. They essentially wind themselves up like a spring and have very little leg movement when bringing the club back, which only adds to the stress the spine and related muscles must bear. When a spring wound that tight releases it does so in such a violent fashion that the torque created affects the spine, knee and wrist joints at impact and on the follow-through. In the pre-Tiger era golfers relied more on weight transfer and less winding of the torso/spine to generate club speed and thus swings had more leg movement to them than they do now. The added muscle mass these players are carrying on their frames doesn't help, as it tends to limit range of motion and flexibility and creates undue stress on the body. Rest-assured, players that do a modicum of exercise to stay strong and limber and have more of a classic leg-driven, weight-transfer style swing (think Jordan Spieth, Rickie Fowler and Justin Thomas), will have much longer careers than the aforementioned torso-oriented, torque-driven power hitters. I tried learning to swing like Jason and Rory and quickly realized that at 51 years of age, my back would never hold-up to the torque placed on it. The extra 10 - 15 yards I was getting on my drives wasn't worth the risk of really screwing something up to my spine or body. At this stage or the game it's all about longevity and keeping my body healthy and limber to play good golf well into my 70's.

[John Kirk]

In general, I think Augusta National now emphasizes finesse and accuracy, over distance, more than it used to.  I think that is generally agreed upon.

Not generally agreed upon by the seniors who are past champions.  They generally believe it's more punishing of short hitters than ever before.

You may be right.  It does seem logical that narrowing fairways and speeding up the greens would increase the need for accuracy and touch.

Here are a few historical leaderboards from the Masters:

http://www.augusta.com/masters/historic/leaderboards/1975leaderboard.shtml

http://www.augusta.com/masters/historic/leaderboards/1985leaderboard.shtml

http://www.augusta.com/masters/historic/leaderboards/1995leaderboard.shtml

http://www.augusta.com/masters/historic/leaderboards/2005leaderboard.shtml

http://www.augusta.com/masters/historic/leaderboards/2015leaderboard.shtml

Going back to your original post, golf has evolved in a natural fashion.  The prize money is big, so the incentive to excel has grown.  In any sport where strength is a benefit, the athletes are now bigger and stronger than they used to be.  Comparing golfers, and the level of competition they faced, from 40 years ago with today's golfers, is the same as comparing other sports stars from 40 years ago.  Yes, the best players and teams from yesteryear would be competitive today, but the depth and quality of overall talent is far better, in every way.

I think the Celtics and Lakers teams from the 1980s might be quite competitive today.  They were very tall, but perhaps not as quick as today's best teams.  The rules have changed a lot.

I don't know enough to predict how pro football teams from the 1980s would compete, though I believe modern defenses might stop old running games cold.  The rules have changed a lot.

I think baseball has made huge leaps in strength, size and ability.  I don't see baseball teams from the 1980s as competitive. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Off your post, Mike - we're about the same age, but I took up the game late and for many years (partly for the fun of it and partly to try to get better at the game) I focused on developing a "correct swing", in the modern style - centered over the ball, with a restricted hip turn etc. I found marginal improvement and a sore back (worse than usual, as it isn't great to begin with because of an old injury). In the last little while, however, I have started doing everything "wrong" - I now move off the ball on my backswing onto a locked right knee/leg, with as much hip turn as is possible without swaying, and I let my left heel lift off the ground as much as it wants to lift, and then I slam it back down to initiate the down swing and uncoil my hips as fast as they want to go while dipping my head down and back as I approach impact.
My back has never felt better, and I'm getting better at golf too!
All of which to say: the current swing theory, much like current training methods, are just that -- i.e. not in any objective sense better than what came before and more effective than what worked before, but just current/modern/different.
P   

[Ira Fishman]

Brandel Chamblee wrote a book about how Peter found the secret (other than the locked right knee).  I got pretty tired of him talking about it on the Golf Channel.

[Mike Bodo]

Off your post, Mike - we're about the same age, but I took up the game late and for many years (partly for the fun of it and partly to try to get better at the game) I focused on developing a "correct swing", in the modern style - centered over the ball, with a restricted hip turn etc. I found marginal improvement and a sore back (worse than usual, as it isn't great to begin with because of an old injury). In the last little while, however, I have started doing everything "wrong" - I now move off the ball on my backswing onto a locked right knee/leg, with as much hip turn as is possible without swaying, and I let my left heel lift off the ground as much as it wants to lift, and then I slam it back down to initiate the down swing and uncoil my hips as fast as they want to go while dipping my head down and back as I approach impact.
My back has never felt better, and I'm getting better at golf too!
All of which to say: the current swing theory, much like current training methods, are just that -- i.e. not in any objective sense better than what came before and more effective than what worked before, but just current/modern/different.
P

Your swing style sounds very similar to mine, sans the head dip and left heel lift, which the latter I did back in the 80's, as that was the commonly practiced technique of the day. Watson, Nicklaus and Miller all lifted their left heels to some degree, which I in turn incorporated into my swing. Now I keep my left heel pretty much planted, with the exception of the outer portion, which comes off the ground only slightly as I bend my left knee in towards my right.