Quaker Ridge

[DTaylor18]

I was fortunate enough to play Quaker Ridge for the first time ths week with a fellow GCAer.  I was blown away. It jumped up right away to my personal top 5 and perhaps top 3.  I've played its neighbor, Winged Foot West a couple of times and enjoyed QR much more.  Perhaps it's similar to the NGLA vs. Shinnecock debate, but if you gave me ten rounds, I'd play 9 QR vs. 1 for WFW.  The greens were not in what I am told is their usual slick condition, but what a wonderful parkland course.  I don' think I've ever played a course with trees that were more beautiful, as it was a clear autumn afternoon and the leaves had just started to turn.  I loved the well known #6 and #11 par 4's, but also really enjoyed the 4 par 3's on the course.  It's a much more intimate place than WF and in my eyes, a more enjoyable walk in the park.  It also put less of an emphasis on the aerial game, as you could run it up on more of the holes.  I am in no way denigrating WF, which is a great course, but I was wondering what other sthought.  It seems to me the QR is rarely talked about here, but to me should be mentioned with the best.

[M.W._Burrows]

I think it definitely has better topography than Winged Foot but the greens and bunkering completely lack interest compared to Winged Foot's.  

[Tim_Weiman]

It's difficult to add to what has already been said. Quaker Ridge does have the better topography and a really cool feeling of intimacy, but Winged Foot has much more sophisticated greens and better bunkers.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Part of what makes tillie so great is the remarkable difference between quaker and wf.

I must say, though, that Quaker has had a history of greens that have generally been a stimp or so slower than its peers in the metro area. That is a bit frustrating because at reasonable speed, say 10, these greens reveal themselves to be far from lacking in interest. They are actually quite remarkable. Unfortunately, for too long they have been shrowded by their relative lack of speed. We had a very very tough year this year, but are hopeful for the future.

I would add that the job Gil Hanse did in rebuilding our first green (after the Fazio organization had a go at it) was absolutely phenomenal. It would be wonderful for Gil to someday get the opportunity to do more for us.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeff Lewis:

It should be said that the greens at WF are in the rare air of extraordinary greens That doesn't mean those at QF lack interest.

[Joel_Stewart]

Just for the information, was Quaker built before or after WF and how many Tillie holes are left?

I've always wondered why either WF or Quaker would choose the same architect as the course across the street.  Maybe Tillie was like Fazio and would build all of the golf courses if given the chance.

[M.W._Burrows]

Tillie designed or redesigned a bunch of courses in the area including Wykagyl, Quaker, Winged Foot, Scarsdale, Fenway, Sleepy Hollow, and Sunningdale.

Weren't the bunkers renovated in the mid-1990's?  I'd like to see a picture of the originals.  I've heard that many of the greens have been tampered with as well.

I believe the original nine were built by John Duncan Dunn who was a design partner of Walter Travis for a period of time.  Tillie redesigned that nine which became the back (inner)nine and added the outer (front) nine.

If you want to see a Tillie course with great topography and great greens, check out Fenway.  They are about as severe as Winged Foots but with a greater variety in the direction of the slopes and general sizes!

[Matt_Ward]

I'd be most curious as to how people see the following courses because they are quite close in a number of the different ratings ...

Quaker Ridge
Winged Foot / East
Plainfield

Thanks ...

P.S. The demands of WF / West are beyond anything in Westchester and with the exception of SH and NGLA I see it as a solid third in The Empire State and quite possibly squeezing into the second position.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel Stewart,

If Tillinghast just built a great course down the street, wouldn't you want him to build one for you ?

Winged Foot had its roots with members of the New York Athletic Club, and the logo retains their ties to one another.

Quaker Ridge was founded in 1916 and Tillinghast's version opened for play in 1918.

Winged Foot was founded in 1921 with both courses opening in 1923.

Remember that Shackamaxon opened for play in 1916-1917, Baltusrol opened both courses for play in 1922, Suburban in 1922,  Forest Hills opened for play in 1926, and Ridgewood opened for play in 1929.

Tillinghast also revised Glen Ridge in 1920.

In New York he was involved at Fenway in 1924, Port Jervis in 1922, so he seemed to be the man in that area in that time frame.

It would appear natural that a group of golfers seeking to build a championship venue in that era would seek Tillinghast out, who was prolific in the Metropolitan New York/New Jersey area.

[Joel_Stewart]

If Tillinghast just built a great course down the street, wouldn't you want him to build one for you ?

I said that tongue in cheek but to answer your question, not really?  Its an option but not definite.  

Pat:
In todays world, if Tom Doak built such a great course in Pacific Dunes, why wasn't he hired for the 3rd course?  

[Jeff Fortson]

I have a year end tournament on this course for the Met PGA Assistant's Tour schedule and I can't wait to play it.  Being a lowly assistant sometimes pays off.

Jeff F.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Tim Weiman

I was merely replying to the earlier comment that contained the phrase "lack interest".

Pat Mucci,

John Duncan Dunn built the 1916 version and I am fairly certain that Tillie didn't finish his until after WFW.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel Stewart,

I'm shocked at your question.

The answer is so obvious.

As a commercial venture, not a private club, Mike Keiser wants to attract as many people as possible to his golfing Mecca.  The attraction expands exponentially with a different architect, rather then an architect who already did one of his courses.  He wants diversity, in product and name recognition, hence the bang for the buck is derived from a new architect creating a new product, not a replica.

Do you think that having Doak design the 3rd and 4th course makes sense, or would you think that having C&C design the 3rd course and Pete Dye, for example to design the 4th course ?

The answer seems rather simple to me, but then again,
TEPaul is simple.

Jeff Lewis,

In 1914 the Metropolitan Golf Links purchased 112 acres on Quaker Ridge, then leased the land for 10 years to the Quaker Ridge Field and Country Club.

In 1915 John Duncan Dunn was hired to lay out a nine hole golf course.

When the Metropolitan Golf Links faced money problems, a small group of members organized Quaker Ridge Golf Club in
1916.  They purchased the land and engaged Tillinghast to expand the existing golf course to 18 holes.  Tillinghast built
11 new holes and radically revised seven old ones.  The new
18 hole golf course opened for play in 1918, and is now regarded as a Tillinghast original.

Both courses at Winged Foot did not open for play until 1923, five years after the Tillinghast course at Quaker Ridge was already in play.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

I was also shocked by Joel Stewart's question, especially if he meant to imply Mike Keiser was not happy with the work Tom Doak did at Pacific Dunes. That is certainly not my understanding.

[Joel_Stewart]

I was not trying to imply anything about Tom Doak and was only using Pacific Dunes as an example.  The fact that Stonewall used him twice and he designed two entirely different courses is testament to his ability.

My point goes back to using an architect (Tillie) at Quaker then hiring the same architect across the street for 2 more courses at Winged Foot.  Furthermore he was used at a number of other courses in Weschester County.  It seems odd to me he was used so much in the metropolitan area?

[Jeff_Lewis]

Pat, you obviously have read Bill Quirin's book, which I believe is inaccurate. Perhaps you should have quoted him.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Lewis,

Just for the information, was Quaker built before or after WF and how many Tillie holes are left?

I've always wondered why either WF or Quaker would choose the same architect as the course across the street.  Maybe Tillie was like Fazio and would build all of the golf courses if given the chance.

It doesn't matter which course preceeded the other.
Joel, "wondered why either WF or QR would choose the same architect as the course across the street ?"

I offered the answer that Tillinghast was prolific in the Met area during that era, and, why wouldn't a club want a recognized master to design and build their club when he had recently built so many great clubs nearby ?

Bill's dates might be inaccurate, but it doesn't change the answer because it doesn't matter which course came first, the issue is why the members of the second club wanted an architect who recently designed and built another course nearby, as well as other courses in the Met area, to design their golf course.  I thought that I provided a reasonable answer.

What evidence do you have that refutes Bill's datings ?