The argument for a larger hole

[noonan]

The regulation may be perfect for pros. Their greens are manicured and no one walks on through lines.


But when playing your normal muni - the greens are usually not nearly that smooth.


You could have 2 holes and flags in each green. 1 regulation hole for the "scratch golfer". Also one hole for the recreational player that is double the size. You can differentiate the 2 with different color flags. There are many courses where the regulation hole is unneeded.

[Pete Lavallee]

Gene Sarazen convinced the organizers of the Miami Open to try the large 8" hole for their tournament, citing too much importance on putting. The Tournament was won by the best putter in the field, Paul Runyan. Unless your new hole is as big as a washtub, skill with the flat stick is still a very important part of golf; one which allows shorter hitters to compete with the bombers.

[jeffwarne]

wow.....

[Garland Bayley]

Putting is the easiest part of the game for the beginner. You want to make the game easier for the beginner. Make the clubs shorter, and the courses shorter.


My right-handed brother, who does not play golf can really nail the ball with his grandson's (age 6) left-handed clubs.



IMNSHO larger holes is a stupid idea.

[John Cowden]

Once played a round at Pronghorn Nicklaus with 10" holes and hated it.   It seemed contrived, reduced the focus required, and just wasn't golf for reasons I can't even explain. 

[Greg Chambers]

So on a daily fee course, one which would no doubt already be strapped for funds...your fantastic idea would be to double the budget for flags, flagsticks, and cups...as well as almost double the labor required to cut cups in the morning.  Sounds like a fantastic idea.

[Mark Pavy]

Putting is the easiest part of the game for the beginner. You want to make the game easier for the beginner. Make the clubs shorter, and the courses shorter.
My right-handed brother, who does not play golf can really nail the ball with his grandson's (age 6) left-handed clubs.
IMNSHO larger holes is a stupid idea.

Garland,

I believe Jerry's point and the idea behind 8" holes is not to make the game easier for the beginner, but to allow entry level courses, like munis, to continue to provide a cheap golf entry point. The reality is that a golfer will accept, what many here may call, an inferior putting surface with 8" holes that costs less to build, less to maintain and requires far less water.

[Steve Okula]

So on a daily fee course, one which would no doubt already be strapped for funds...your fantastic idea would be to double the budget for flags, flagsticks, and cups...as well as almost double the labor required to cut cups in the morning.  Sounds like a fantastic idea.

On ther other hand, larger holes would be bound to speed up play, allowing more rounds and revenue.

[Tom Yost]

no

[JESII]

I can absolutely see it working. Wintertime greens here in Philadelphia generally stink...8' cups sure would bring back a balance. Courses with much lower maintenance budgets could target that level of quality year round. With interesting undulations, putting is still interesting.


FWIW, I play in an 8' cup scramble every year and you would be shocked at the putts you can miss...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Have posted this before, but played Monarch Dunes challenge course, where they have big greens and two cups each.  Played a call your shot type format where the previous hole winner got to call the cup, the tee placement, even the club you use, etc.


Most fun I had on a golf course in a long time.  Of course, the company and friendly competition were large parts of it, but the big hole helped, as in allowing more long putts, chip ins, etc.  A lot more whoo hoo moments, and if that isn't what makes golf fun, then what is?

[Kyle Harris]

A lot more whoo hoo moments, and if that isn't what makes golf fun, then what is?

Putting forth the effort to overcome the already present challenges of the game.

[Peter Pallotta]

...FWIW, I play in an 8' cup scramble every year and you would be shocked at the putts you can miss...

With the little cups I tell myself that even Crenshaw missed a few. With the big cups, 3-putts left me with an unpleasant feeling of self-disgust. It got so bad I started to blame the architect...

[BCowan]

Kyle,

   If these people who support this nonsense would get out of their basements and actually go to a muni or low key public joint and espouse these regressive ideas to public golfers they would get laughed out of the parking lot.  Played twice this winter up North and there was 100+ people out playing golf, ages 14-60 years old. 

   I would just love for GCAer that supports growing the game through central planning gimmicks to visit a muni or low key public track and ask people how they started playing golf.  Their answers would be, through friends, work league, worked at a course, or parents ect. 

[ChipRoyce]

Here, here! And let's make sure that at the completion of each round, every paying golfer gets a participation medal.

[Jason Topp]

I used to play in 8 inch cup events about once per year.  I decided that they do not really change the game that much other than (1) a putt plays about the equivalent of a putt of half the length (an 8 footer is like a four footer); (2) it places less emphasis on controlling speed because you should probably try and hit it 3 feet past so you never leave it short (which I still managed to do) and (3) you hole out from off the green much more often. 

Your score improves a couple of strokes but I do not see that as a real improvement in the game.  One's expectations will adjust very quickly.

[MCirba]

I understand the rationale and I guess it might help beginners and some others finish quicker, but the novelty would quickly wear off and then what.

[JJShanley]

I understand the rationale and I guess it might help beginners and some others finish quicker, but the novelty would quickly wear off and then what.

I see the benefit of using a larger hole for, say punched greens, or during winter, but I don't think it will catch on further than that given that so many golfers like to compare themselves to the game's best. 

[Peter Flory]

Winnetka golf course uses the 2 hole system on their par 3 course.  It works well.  The larger holes are mainly utilized by kids and beginners while others use the traditional holes. 

[Steve Fekety]

A few summers back, TaylorMade introduced a 15" cup in an effort to grow the game.  One of the little public courses in Scottsdale - Silverado,  put them in play for a the whole summer.  They actually followed the suggestions presented earlier in the thread, two cups per hole.  One big, one small.  They didn't move the big holes, but they tucked them in the corners of the greens so they didn't interfere with people playing the regulation cups.  When I heard they were experimenting with them, I immediately wanted to try it.  I have to say, it was a ton of fun, but then again, I love golf.  #59watch, or so I thought.  It did take a few holes to get your speed strategy under control.  It definitely helped with pace of play.  At the end of the day, I was happy I experienced it. 


http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/hack-golf-aims-grow-game-taylormade-sponsored-brainstorm-session

[PThomas]

it wouldn't be golf

[Jeff_Brauer]

Reading Broadie's book "Every Shot Counts".  Lots of interesting stuff in there, but one was that statistically, large cups narrow the gap between good and poor putters. 


Obviously, good putters won't like it.

[JESII]

Jeff - how do you figure that jives with Paul Runyan running away with the event they played with large cups in the 40's?  Too small a sample size?  I personally am very skeptical of Broadies statistics...

[Steve Lang]

   I'm thinking that this could seriously impact the Putt-Putt Golf farm system, perhaps the largest source of new golfers out there


https://youtu.be/BHg7lEuyv_E

[Jeff_Brauer]

A lot more whoo hoo moments, and if that isn't what makes golf fun, then what is?

Putting forth the effort to overcome the already present challenges of the game.

I have no problem if others enjoy the great game of golf differently than me.  Would you rather have a young Dad play under easier conditions, or give the game up because he doesn't have the time to prioritize practice (i.e., put forth the effort) to the degree he really needs to?


I understand the traditional concept, but golf may have to adapt, at some courses, to the reality of less income, less time, lower priority the Millennials might put on golf. Its not like it hasn't changed a bunch over hundreds of years to suit tastes already.  Why should that change now?  If you play a traditional course, is it any skin off your back that 10% of the courses in town offer that alternative?


Pete L,


Broadie touches on the fact that there is always some anecdotal story seemingly proving a point.  But his point is based on thousands of pro and am shots, and he feels the stats don't lie.  Larger cups narrow the gap between good and bad putters. Thus, more emphasis is put back on the long game.  Not an altogether bad thing, as Ted Williams once proposed. Think of all those scrambles out there where the C and D players become more relevant and have more fun by contributing shots.


Again, not saying its for everybody, or should be.  Just see areas where it would help golf. And as noted, even traditional players seem to enjoy it a few times a year in many cases.  If it leads to 8-25M more golf rounds as each golfer plays large cup once, that would also be a good thing.


Hopefully not in too poor taste, since he has passed, but I am reminded of my Carnac joke involving Bob Cupp (and he laughed louder than anyone) was;


A. Oversize Cup - Q. What nickname did Bob give himself.
A. 4 1/4 inch Cup - QWhat did the girls call him..........