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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2017, 04:14:04 PM »


Ian,

It’s tremendously hard to generalize on this. And for every example I could think of, I found a contradiction to what I thought about

Good point, and why I also hesitated to try.  Case in point was my point about the bunker styles.  Compare pics at Stream Song, and you will note that each of the architects went out of their way to vary the bunker styles, from natural exposed, to cape and bay, to simpler shapes, to varying sizes, etc.


The most is true is about TD.  As an iconoclast, he is the most resistant to being type cast.


To be honest, and as I mentioned, the whole idea of the real underlying thoughts of an architect would be an interesting LA thesis for some young kid interested in golf.  I doubt they could come close to your analytics but I doubt you have the time to really undertake it.  Wonder if there is a phycology/golf architecture major out there somewhere?


Maybe we need to preserve their brains for future study.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2017, 05:28:19 PM »
TD courses seem to have more collection areas in the fairways where divots can become predominant, like the one they filed in at the Old Course

That's because I often don't re-shape the contours of the fairways ... like The Old Course !

so I would say that would be a correct distinction, yet not necessarily a good one, :)


Have you considered the alternative?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2017, 11:08:23 PM »
collection areas are a distinction of Doak courses, if you get a lot of play, you get lots of divots in one spot QED

does a golf course architect/designer consider the alternative?

I'm sure they do everyday

personally, I think the only place all golf balls should share frequently, is the bottom of the cup  ;D

It's all about the golf!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2017, 01:08:07 AM »
collection areas are a distinction of Doak courses, if you get a lot of play, you get lots of divots in one spot QED

does a golf course architect/designer consider the alternative?

I'm sure they do everyday

personally, I think the only place all golf balls should share frequently, is the bottom of the cup  ;D


Come on Grey, Bandon Trails has lots of collection areas. You shouldn't play at the resort so much, and stay home more. Fewer collection areas.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2017, 10:17:03 AM »
collection areas are a distinction of Doak courses, if you get a lot of play, you get lots of divots in one spot QED

does a golf course architect/designer consider the alternative?

I'm sure they do everyday

personally, I think the only place all golf balls should share frequently, is the bottom of the cup  ;D


I'm curious - when's the last round you played on Pacific Dunes? 


And do you remember how many times you had to play out of a divot in that round?


If you can't remember for sure, next time you play the course, please report back.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2017, 11:14:25 AM »
Would or could C & C or Gil  build a course like Old MacDonald?


Bingo. That is the right question. 


Bob


I'm not sure Tom would have built OM if Mike Keiser didn't give up on replicating Lido on that site. I believe much of the influence was from George Bahto.


Now that the Lido concept has been scratched again at Streamsong another homage course is possibly in the works, we'll see who the architect is.

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2017, 11:17:12 AM »
Another homage course at Streamsong? Homage to whom?
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2017, 11:47:02 AM »
During our last King's Putter at Bandon several years ago, Mike Benham found himself in a divot field in a little bowl on the left side of #13 at Pacific Dunes and mentioned that he experienced that often: being in a divot on a spot that was frequently visited. It is perhaps a valid criticism.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2017, 11:59:07 AM »
hahaha

Ballyneal and Dismal Red have the same style collection areas, the members have names for them LOL

the point is that Tom does have a distinctiveness with these collection areas, good, bad, or indifferent

16 at Pacific short right of the green is a favorite small collection area of mine which I avoid

also 3 Old Mac in front of the right fairway/greenside bunker, hard to avoid with the blind tee shot

also 15 Old Mac left fairway bunker 260 off the green tee, like a vortex :)

thank you
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 12:08:15 PM by William_G »
It's all about the golf!

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2017, 12:50:00 PM »
Also the bowl of achievement on #16 at Ballyneal and the bowl of despair #10 at Ballyneal.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2017, 01:13:49 PM »
the point is that Tom does have a distinctiveness with these collection areas, good, bad, or indifferent


I can't comment on the courses or holes mentioned, but the reason I asked my question is this:


It seems to me that the alternative to collection areas is overly graded, smoothed out fairways. I guess you could also add soft playing surfaces.


I could certainly be wrong on this, I'd be curious to hear what others have to say.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2017, 01:24:00 PM »
the point is that Tom does have a distinctiveness with these collection areas, good, bad, or indifferent


I can't comment on the courses or holes mentioned, but the reason I asked my question is this:


It seems to me that the alternative to collection areas is overly graded, smoothed out fairways. I guess you could also add soft playing surfaces.


I could certainly be wrong on this, I'd be curious to hear what others have to say.

mounding, slopes, no one wants flat but Gamble Sands is pretty awesome without being totally flat, LOL
It's all about the golf!

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2017, 04:04:39 PM »
Another homage course at Streamsong? Homage to whom?


I definitely misspoke, it's not a homage course.  I heard that a routing from a course never built from a famous ODG (not Mac) was recovered and there's some talk about trying to build that.  The discussion has just started.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2017, 04:24:51 PM »


Ballyneal and Dismal Red have the same style collection areas, the members have names for them LOL

the point is that Tom does have a distinctiveness with these collection areas, good, bad, or indifferent

16 at Pacific short right of the green is a favorite small collection area of mine which I avoid

also 3 Old Mac in front of the right fairway/greenside bunker, hard to avoid with the blind tee shot

also 15 Old Mac left fairway bunker 260 off the green tee, like a vortex :)



You didn't answer the question that I'd asked, which was, how often do you actually have to play out of a divot?  I'm looking for a sense of how often it happens before it's something that becomes labeled "unfair" and needs to be fixed.


Because, actually, your saying that you have made yourself avoid the deep bowl short right of #16 at Pacific Dunes was something that made me smile.  Unlike, say, the natural bowls on #1 fairway, short right of #16 is supposed to be a bad place to be.  If you're half likely to get in a divot down there, that adds to it, and if you're smart enough to avoid that spot like the plague, good on you. 


In general, if you find a divot once a round on one of my courses, I'd just say, "deal with it."  :)


If it's happening a lot more often than that, that's entirely different, then it's a problem that needs to be addressed.  I just can't get a sense of how often it happens, because some people complain about it if it happens once in a blue moon.  Especially the 1-handicappers, for some reason.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2017, 04:29:50 PM »
I don't know any of Gil's courses, which is why I am excited to be at the Dixie Cup this fall.

I have played Bandon Trails twice and Dormie 5 times.  It is clear to me that the same people did both courses.  Many common characteristics.  Really enjoy both!

But to my point................. about TD & Team
Beechtree, sadly NLE, is (was) a great example of "Parkland Golf".  Played thrice before it closed.
Rawls Course is a manufactured terrain based on a regional models, then over laid with the game.  Never played it.
Old MacDonald, is self consciously retro-recall-historical. Played once.

The conceptual leaps and mental flexibility needed to switch gears between those examples is off the scale to me.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2017, 11:39:01 PM »


Ballyneal and Dismal Red have the same style collection areas, the members have names for them LOL

the point is that Tom does have a distinctiveness with these collection areas, good, bad, or indifferent

16 at Pacific short right of the green is a favorite small collection area of mine which I avoid

also 3 Old Mac in front of the right fairway/greenside bunker, hard to avoid with the blind tee shot

also 15 Old Mac left fairway bunker 260 off the green tee, like a vortex :)



You didn't answer the question that I'd asked, which was, how often do you actually have to play out of a divot?  I'm looking for a sense of how often it happens before it's something that becomes labeled "unfair" and needs to be fixed.


Because, actually, your saying that you have made yourself avoid the deep bowl short right of #16 at Pacific Dunes was something that made me smile.  Unlike, say, the natural bowls on #1 fairway, short right of #16 is supposed to be a bad place to be.  If you're half likely to get in a divot down there, that adds to it, and if you're smart enough to avoid that spot like the plague, good on you. 


In general, if you find a divot once a round on one of my courses, I'd just say, "deal with it."  :)


If it's happening a lot more often than that, that's entirely different, then it's a problem that needs to be addressed.  I just can't get a sense of how often it happens, because some people complain about it if it happens once in a blue moon.  Especially the 1-handicappers, for some reason.

I'm sorry if I didn't answer your question, but that was not my intention :)

You and I see it as a distinction of yours, it's all good

it's always admirable when one owns what they have done.... Bill, Ben, and Gil are good with that
It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2017, 11:43:59 PM »
Also the bowl of achievement on #16 at Ballyneal and the bowl of despair #10 at Ballyneal.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
It's all about the golf!

John Kirk

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Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2017, 01:06:39 AM »
I believe the bowl in the left side of the 10th fairway is known as "The Bowl of Mediocrity".  Despair is too strong a word for the outcome.  It is a big bowl, and I doubt it yields a high percentage of divot lies.  I think you'd be more likely to land in a divot in the small depressions on the left side of #8 and #12 fairway, but divot lies are pretty rare at Ballyneal.

While I agree with the assertion that divot lies are relatively common in the 1st and 16th fairways at Pacific Dunes, I doubt you'd average one per round.  Place ball about one inch further back in stance, and make sure to strike with a slightly more pronounced downward blow.  If one is feeling cocky, or wishing to draw attention to self, make sure to say, "Watch this."

Consider me another fan of Ian Andrew's summary.  I'm sure that required a significant amount of time and thought.

Just checking in.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Distinctiveness Among C&C, Doak and Hanse
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2017, 10:10:23 AM »
I believe the bowl in the left side of the 10th fairway is known as "The Bowl of Mediocrity".  Despair is too strong a word for the outcome.  It is a big bowl, and I doubt it yields a high percentage of divot lies.  I think you'd be more likely to land in a divot in the small depressions on the left side of #8 and #12 fairway, but divot lies are pretty rare at Ballyneal.

While I agree with the assertion that divot lies are relatively common in the 1st and 16th fairways at Pacific Dunes, I doubt you'd average one per round.  Place ball about one inch further back in stance, and make sure to strike with a slightly more pronounced downward blow.  If one is feeling cocky, or wishing to draw attention to self, make sure to say, "Watch this."

Consider me another fan of Ian Andrew's summary.  I'm sure that required a significant amount of time and thought.

Just checking in.

agreed

Ballyneal gets less play

Pacific and the Old Course get tons of play
It's all about the golf!