News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ryan Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's happening to private clubs in the Philadelphia area?
« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2017, 01:28:49 PM »
but at least in the metro Detroit area most private clubs seem to have weathered the storm from the last recession and are doing well by and large

Agree with Cowan. The bigger issue for rust belt cities are the changing demographics and the club debt that will be left behind. This topic has been discussed ad nauseam.  Many clubs in the Detroit area will go down and/or will be forced to change bus models.
"Bandon is like Chamonix for skiers or the North Shore of Oahu for surfers,” Rogers said. “It is where those who really care end up."

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's happening to private clubs in the Philadelphia area?
« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2017, 07:34:29 PM »
but at least in the metro Detroit area most private clubs seem to have weathered the storm from the last recession and are doing well by and large

Agree with Cowan. The bigger issue for rust belt cities are the changing demographics and the club debt that will be left behind. This topic has been discussed ad nauseam.  Many clubs in the Detroit area will go down and/or will be forced to change bus models.


Well, I am amazed that far more private clubs didn't bite the dust in metroish Detroit.  So, yes, I would agree with Mike, Detroit clubs have weathered the storm very well to date...especially as I suspect a decent percentage of clubs didn't enter the downturn in great shape.  Its the public courses in Michigan which have taken a huge hit in the past 15 years....not surprising since Michigan had more public courses than any other in the country...in truth, Michigan may still have more than any other state.  I don't expect this to be the case in 5 years.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's happening to private clubs in the Philadelphia area?
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2017, 07:34:31 PM »
My understanding is the vote passed 189-4

Matt Frey, PGA

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's happening to private clubs in the Philadelphia area?
« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2017, 03:44:05 PM »
Word is that as of today, Philmont has been sold to Concert Golf Partners, officially.

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's happening to private clubs in the Philadelphia area?
« Reply #55 on: March 01, 2017, 03:54:10 PM »
Word is that as of today, Philmont has been sold to Concert Golf Partners, officially.

true
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Bob Simons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's happening to private clubs in the Philadelphia area?
« Reply #56 on: March 01, 2017, 07:29:28 PM »
http://myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=18087&pid=20


Here is the press release. Sounds like the plan is to sell the South Course. I've been in contact with their new GM the last few days regarding joining. I asked him yesterday at about 3:00pm if the plans were to keep it as a 36 hole faculty. He said yes. I also asked if the would maintain their policy of being able to carry your bag at all times. He told me yes, then sent me over the 2017 Rules and Regulations which stated you could only carry your own bag after 2pm. Probably just a case of the new information not trickling down yet but it's unfortunate as those were things I was looking forward to.

BCowan

Re: What's happening to private clubs in the Philadelphia area?
« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2017, 10:16:49 AM »
http://myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=18087&pid=20


Here is the press release. Sounds like the plan is to sell the South Course. I've been in contact with their new GM the last few days regarding joining. I asked him yesterday at about 3:00pm if the plans were to keep it as a 36 hole faculty. He said yes. I also asked if the would maintain their policy of being able to carry your bag at all times. He told me yes, then sent me over the 2017 Rules and Regulations which stated you could only carry your own bag after 2pm. Probably just a case of the new information not trickling down yet but it's unfortunate as those were things I was looking forward to.

Bob,

   We have those in Metro Detroit, courses hanging on by a limb and you can't carry till after 4pm.  Another has walking taxes. 
Here is a nice old thread,  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58178.msg1366127.html#msg1366127

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
The sale of Philmont was not unexpected. Member owned clubs may become a thing of the past except for the top tier clubs. Philmont  has suffered from changing demographics, continuing assessments, maintaining 2 courses, failure to sell excess acreage on the South Course. Founded in  1906 by the elite of the Philadelphia Jewish community, the founders must be spinning in their graves. The club was kept alive during the Depression by the likes of the Gimbel Bros and others. From the Press Release:

"Member-owned clubs often struggle to manage the long-term process of extracting value from their excess real estate," said Nanula.  "It takes capital, it takes development expertise, and it is difficult to make these decisions among 300-plus voting members. We can do it all more quickly for the members with our own capital and a streamlined decision-making process."
Added Jordan Kendall, a Philmont Board member who, along with Meyer, led the club's recapitalization with Concert Golf: "This partnership with Concert Golf preserves Philmont for the long term, and ends the era of funding capital projects with member assessments. We have a rich history and top-notch North Course here at Philmont, and now our club is debt-free and our future is brighter than ever."
Interestingly, the discussions started when 90-year old Philmont member David Fields, a former investment banker, called Concert Golf after reading an article about other successful club recapitalizations. "I read an article about other high-end private clubs getting a capital infusion from Concert Golf, and so I reached out to them," Fields said. "From there, the process was very straightforward."
Concert Golf Chairman Peter Nanula announced that his team would immediately undertake more than $4 million in new capital projects at Philmont CC, including extensive bunker renovations and tree removal; new swimming pool upgrades; outdoor dining; new HVAC and utilities infrastructure; and dramatically renovated mens and women's locker room facilities.
"Philmont CC is a great club with a top-rated golf course and a dedicated membership, but it had too much real estate and not enough capital," Nanula said. "All of these capital and real estate issues are now solved. No more debt - we paid off all the debt last week. No more member assessments - we will pay for and complete the Board's list of improvements much faster, at no cost to the members. And we will spend over $1 million getting the real estate entitled and sold to free up extra capital for reinvestment back into the club facilities."
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 02:53:51 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Steve,

Will the South Course survive this change?   Thanks.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,


I don't know if South will survive. Depends on sale to a developer.  Some holes may survive. The club failed to sell when they tried to interested parties.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

BCowan

Steve,

   I have not played Philmont.  Maintaining 2 courses is actually more efficient my keeper friend tells me.  Is the south course a decent course?  I agree that members owned courses may be a thing of the past but it pisses me off to see Golden Age courses close due to arrogant 1950's CC models.  Mid tier privates can be more sustainable then higher end courses.  You can't get 150 acre plots close to densely populated areas without spending a fortune.  I also don't wanna hear there are too many courses and ones need to close BS.  There are too many of the same old models, no choices for the Golf consumer. 

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ben,


Supply and Demand is not a new concept.


I'm not rooting for any to close...but I can acknowledge that the golf consumer numbers around Philadelphia are not about to increase by 30% or 40%.


The South Course at Philmont is really cool. The North is great.

BCowan

Jim,

   Golf numbers are much higher then in 1950.  When you have an over Supply of Arrogant Country clubs and under severed Golf club market.  99% of private clubs are going after the same market, ''The Family concept''.  High scale public didn't exist when Philmont opened.  There isn't a Supply problem, there is a observation problem in not being able to recognize the club isn't your Daddy's club anymore concept.  If you think looking down on members carrying their clubs which is or was the clubs policy is acceptable, then you don't get it.  It's one of many red flags.   

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Certainly one of us doesn't get it.

BCowan

Jim,

    It's sad for I do get it.  The course I grew up at had a caddie program where my father caddied for my mother and that's how they met.  They later got rid of the caddie program for the market dictated.  Now the club is located in one of the premier burbs of Toledo with 2 private clubs in the same burb.  They have zero debt, while the CC has 200 members and lots of debt.  Another CC founded by RA Stranahan has 80 members and no competition in another top burb of Toledo.  Now the club that I grew up at, remained a Golf club and voted down a $6 million dollar clubhouse in 2000, has zero debt and 290 members and going strong.   Another very top course in the area has Debt, but debt doesn't matter these days...  When 1/4 of the budget at top Detroit Golf clubs goes to Golf Maint and operations while the rest goes to servicing the leviathan, again I do get it.   

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
The South Course at Philmont also has a number of holes designed by Hugh Wilson, along with other renovations.   While the North course designed by Willie Park, Jr.  is clearly the superior course the South has some terrific holes, as Jim mentioned.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
To your earlier question, Mike, I think part of Concert Golf's pitch to the club was that they have the resources and expertise to complete the South Course transaction that failed a year or two ago.




D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I wonder if there is a way to create a composite 18 hole course which uses some of the really good holes from South to replace the weaker holes on the North. Does anyone know the locaton of the 60 acres they are planning to sell off?

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jim/D_Malley,


That's interesting.   Would love to see a Composite course eliminatring early and late holes on each nine of the North but suspect that is unlikely.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike & Jim,


Here's the aerial of South, courtesy of The Bausch Collection:


http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/PhilmontSouth/pages/page_5.html?

Note that holes 4,5,6& 16 are across from Tomlinson Road. I doubt that this area is 60 acres. If so, additional acreage could be used for development. Holes 17 &18 border the range. Holes 1,2&3 and 4 others could be used for a 9 hole course and the remaining sold for development. That's something that could be considered.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 03:51:50 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bob Simons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike & Jim,


Here's the aerial of South, courtesy of The Bausch Collection:


http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/PhilmontSouth/pages/page_5.html?

Note that holes 4,5,6& 16 are across from Tomlinson Road. I doubt that this area is 60 acres. If so, additional acreage could be used for development. Holes 17 &18 border the range. Holes 1,2&3 and 4 others could be used for a 9 hole course and the remaining sold for development. That's something that could be considered.





Gentlemen, I found an article online from when they had the deal in place with Toll Brothers, it mentions the holes closest to Pine Road, near the indoor tennis center. I spoke to the Concert Golf rep today who is handling membership at Philmont, he said while that is ultimately the plan, the sale of the acreage has not even begun yet as they currently do not have a buyer on board. He felt that it was possible that 9 holes survive.


Also, he also clarified that you will, in fact, be able to carry your bag at anytime on either course. I had previously posted differently but there was some tweaks to the Rules/Regulations that hadn't been added to the final copy yet. Going to make it official over the weekend, I'm beyond excited.




















Bob Simons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Just returned from Philmont, great piece of property and the improvements that Concert Golf has planned will definitely make the club more attractive. The upgrades to the pool area which will start this week were enough to convince my wife! I have seen earlier threads on this board debating the 18th hole of the North Course. The gentleman from Concert explained to me that part of the master plan is to shift the 18th green significantly to the right, creating a dogleg. He explained to me that the new green site will be close to the front of the #1 tee box of the South Course. I'm not sure what this would do to that hole but the plan is in place to facilitate the building of a new outdoor patio that will be behind the current day 18 North green. I'm looking forward to playing my first round over there.

Matt Frey, PGA

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bob: Did you get a sense of what they may be doing to the men's locker room? It would be a shame if they lost it's old-school character.

Bob Simons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bob: Did you get a sense of what they may be doing to the men's locker room? It would be a shame if they lost it's old-school character.


Matt, I agree with you about how great the old school feel of it is. I had never been there before and was blown away when we walked into the locker room. I loved all the exposed steel and the upper tier that looks down on the first level. He did say they have plans to update it, I got the sense that they were really going to modernize it. I hope they don't do too much to it but we shall see.