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Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is the 6th hole similar to 7 at Crystal Downs?  I see some resemblance although the scale seems completely different.

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Great tour Morgan!

I had to laugh at the change to the Armchair Architect hole.  Obviously DMK and Mr. Keiser's prerogative, but after all the marketing and publicity with the contest, the guy visiting to "approve" the rough construction, etc...it's hilarious that the hole's main feature is gone and it has nothing to do with him any more!
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Ryan Farrow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is the 6th hole similar to 7 at Crystal Downs?  I see some resemblance although the scale seems completely different.


No. Not in any way. Green and hole are completely different.

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Great tour Morgan!

I had to laugh at the change to the Armchair Architect hole.  Obviously DMK and Mr. Keiser's prerogative, but after all the marketing and publicity with the contest, the guy visiting to "approve" the rough construction, etc...it's hilarious that the hole's main feature is gone and it has nothing to do with him any more!

Thanks Brad! 

The general lay-out of the hole and green location have remained the same based on what I've seen over the last couple of years.  Taking-out the 3 bunkers definitely alters the tee shot considerations.  But, long hitters would have just flown them anyway.

And to be fair, DMK has made changes to bunkers that his own guys roughed-in (see 13th hole for an example).  I think they will keep tinkering with the bunkers next year, particularly on the fairway margins.

The 14th tee is one of the really special spots on the course.  It's riveting to watch what happens with the tee shots.  And the view from up there is terrific.

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is the 6th hole similar to 7 at Crystal Downs?  I see some resemblance although the scale seems completely different.


You'll find out Sunday!!


I drove 6 last Monday with pin far right. Green is currently too slow to use slopes to sling a putt around from front or middle left to back right but that will change as it gets up to same speed as Sand Valley.



"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is the 6th hole similar to 7 at Crystal Downs?  I see some resemblance although the scale seems completely different.
You'll find out Sunday!!  I drove 6 last Monday with pin far right. Green is currently too slow to use slopes to sling a putt around from front or middle left to back right but that will change as it gets up to same speed as Sand Valley.

Dan, you just have to hit it a little harder! 

I love #6.  Lots of options and fun.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0

Enjoyed a lovely visit to Sand Valley this weekend.  Here are a few shots taken on the par 3 course.  I was sufficiently confused that I have no idea what holes these pictures show.  Then again, I am not sure anyone knows the exact sequence of holes.  We basically determined them by committee.


106 by Jason Topp, on Flickr

109 by Jason Topp, on Flickr


108 by Jason Topp, on Flickr


107 by Jason Topp, on Flickr




Ryan Farrow

  • Karma: +0/-0

Thanks for posting, I haven't seen many photos of the course since I left in July. Photos are great and happy to see another great grow-in by Rob, Lucas and company. I labeled the photos for you below.


#13







#8





#6 From 5 green




#3 Green and some trees from behind



Brian Zager

  • Karma: +0/-0
I can provide some insight into the contest for the 14th hole.  I was fortunate enough to be present when Brian Silvernail (the contest winner) was brought up here.  Brian is a friend of mine and I actually told him about the contest, otherwise he probably wouldn't have known about it.  We are both interested in golf course architecture and have created courses for computer games and simulators for many years.  I'm particularly interested in the strategy of golf holes and routings and prefer to use real pieces of land when creating fictional courses for games.  I'm local to Sand Valley and it's been a dream come true to see the process of courses like these being built not far from my hometown.

Brian's thinking behind his original design for the hole was a risk/reward where you could challenge the right bunkers with the driver or choose a layup shot down the left side.  From the layup you could either hit an uphill wedge shot over sand into the green or play a lower shot to the right using the same contour that you would with driver from the tee.

The concern we were told was that bringing the fairway all the way back to the layup area down the left side would be a problem for drainage.  This is the low spot surrounded by 60+ feet hillsides on the right and left and gentle slopes coming in from front and beyond.  As you can imagine, he would defer to the experts on this as it is something us computer/simulator course designers don't usually think about.  So this area has been left as a sandy waste area.

Another concern was that the right bunkers would discourage players who couldn't consistently carry them from taking on the line required to go for the green, thus causing the hole to favor longer ball hitters too much.  With the left layup area gone, a plateau area a little left of where the bunkers used to be became the layup spot.  It leaves a clear view and a fairly level lie for a full wedge shot.  You may consider playing to this spot because there is still a risk to a mishit when going for the green.  Instead of ending up in a bunker about 120 yards out, balls coming up short of reaching the green roll down into a lower section of fairway in front of the green leaving an awkward 50 yard pitch shot uphill over a bunker.  But with a carry not required to go for the green it is less intimidating (maybe even enticing? ;D ) for the average golfer to go for it now.

The tee positioning changed by collective agreement.  It was further left, down the slope originally.  I don't remember who suggested it but as soon as it was suggested I had a pretty good idea it was going to be better and when we walked up there it was confirmed.  Everyone agreed the view was more stunning and the angle encouraged the ball to roll down the side of the hill more.

They also added an aiming bunker on the top right side of the hill approximately in line with the front of the green that was to be flared up so balls couldn't roll into it.  They had Brian flag out the shape of this bunker.  They also let him run the bulldozer and excavator to get a sense of what shaping holes is like in the real world.  All of that was decided upon Brian's visit to the site and he agreed with the changes.  The fairway bunkers were already gone when he visited.  I don't know if they would have put the fairway bunkers back in if he wanted them back but it didn't come to that.

David also flagged out the grass line around the aiming bunker while we were there, leaving only a narrow strip of grass around its right side.  I thought there should be more grass around the right side so the player could play the slope as high as they wanted and a miss back behind the bunker to the right would roll into a collection area of fairway or sand behind the green.  I didn't see how balls could ever get to this area without that.  I mentioned it but since I was neither the contest winner nor the architect I figured it wasn't my place to push for it.  :) That aiming bunker now has no grass around the right side of it.  It is a finger of sand coming out of the rest of the waste area sand on the right.

Another change since Brian was up here was that a bunker was added on a direct line to the green from the tee to prevent bombers from taking this line and instead forcing them to play the slope.  At least for them this may bring that fairway/sandy area back right of the green back into play if they overpower the slope.  It could require more of finesse shot for them to catch the green.  This pic illustrates it pretty well because you can see the shading of where the fairway starts to fall away in a diagonal line from the finger of sand to the back of the green.


Image from Twitter @the_fried_egg

One of the biggest surprises for me is how often and late the plans change to the point that I don't see how a contest entry could look the same by the time the course is finished.  In computer games/simulators we have the benefit of being able to play the hole and tweak it and play it again until it plays the way we want it to.  Since real architects don't simulate their holes, a plan on paper is difficult to get a sense of how it will play.   From topo plan to walking the property to shaping to growing in to preview play to a year after opening day, new information is continuously gained and appropriate changes are applied so we get a great hole and a great course.  :)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 07:32:01 PM by Brian Zager »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0

Thanks for posting, I haven't seen many photos of the course since I left in July. Photos are great and happy to see another great grow-in by Rob, Lucas and company. I labeled the photos for you below.




Thanks Ryan.  Congratulations on the project!

Brian Zager

  • Karma: +0/-0
Morgan, or anyone, would you happen to have any more pictures or higher resolution pictures of 14 before the 3 sister bunkers were removed?  I told Brian Silvernail about this thread and he asked me to ask about it since he didn't get to see it when the bunkers were still shaped in.  Thanks.

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Morgen, thanks for all the effort here. This is great tour you have put together.


Out of curiosity for those of you that have seen and played what's open and also been to Bandon Dunes Resort and Streamsong.


Where would Sand Valley as a resort stand for you in comparison with the others?



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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1

Out of curiosity for those of you that have seen and played what's open and also been to Bandon Dunes Resort and Streamsong.


Where would Sand Valley as a resort stand for you in comparison with the others?


To compare it to Bandon at this stage is silly.  Bandon has FOUR of the top 100 courses in America.  It will be a few years before Sand Valley can even try to match up with them.


 Streamsong Red stands out for me because it has a couple of holes (7, 9) that are unique; I'm not sure Sand Valley has any in that category.  But if I had to compare them hole by hole I'm guessing it would be a close call. As for Streamsong Blue v Mammoth Dunes, I'm a bit biased ;)

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sand Valley could end up surpassing Streamsong IMO.  It will be hard to beat the quality at Bandon and the ocean views everyone fawns over (or the 3 club wind!).  Sand Valley is more fun than Streamsong Red for the average 15 HDCP IMO.  It's on fescue (duh).  And if what a little birdie told me recently about course #3 pans out, it will be very intriguing.  They're not really competitors though.  Streamsong is a winter getaway destination, and a very good one at that.  Sand Valley may end up taking some visitors away from Bandon.  It's within a 4 hour drive of metro Chicago, Minneapolis and Milwaukee, not to mention much easier to get to for anyone east of the Mississippi.  When you throw in Lawsonia, Erin Hills & Whistling Straights, you can make a hell of a trip out of it. 


Sand Valley vs. Streamsong:


SV > Red
Blue > Mammoth
#3 vs. Black ?  TBD
Also Sand Valley may end up with #4, 5 & 6!


Sand Valley vs. Bandon
SV v. BT ?  Trails will be tough to beat here but SV is very good.  Trails may be a hair better, but it's closer than many think.  SV may be a bit more user friendly for the retail golfer.
BD v. Mammoth?  Fans of DMK (I'm not one of 'em) will love both courses.  BD probably wins on scenery alone, but again not a slam dunk as Mammoth is about as pretty of a course as you could ask for without an ocean.
PD v. #3?  TBD, but it will be a tall order to beat one of the consensus modern classics.
OM v. #4?  Could we possibly see another really top notch tribute course at SV?  Not out of the question with the crafty Keisers, although OM may be my favorite course at Bandon; so again, it will be very tough to beat.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 08:05:52 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Morgan, or anyone, would you happen to have any more pictures or higher resolution pictures of 14 before the 3 sister bunkers were removed?  I told Brian Silvernail about this thread and he asked me to ask about it since he didn't get to see it when the bunkers were still shaped in.  Thanks.

Brian, the best photo I have of the 3 bunkers on 14 is posted in the 2nd reply on the first page of this thread. 

Love the aerial photo you posted as well as the back story.

If you size the photo to a width of 800 it will fit into this website without having to use the scroll bar.

Brian Zager

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brian, the best photo I have of the 3 bunkers on 14 is posted in the 2nd reply on the first page of this thread. 

Love the aerial photo you posted as well as the back story.

If you size the photo to a width of 800 it will fit into this website without having to use the scroll bar.

OK, thanks anyway.  I unfortunately was never over there when they were shaped in so I have no pictures of it to give him either.

I linked to that image from the Sand Valley twitter account so I don't have control over the size and it wasn't my picture.  I will keep that in mind when I post my own pics though, thanks.  I'll look through my pics from the ground and see if I have anything to add, you did a really good job of covering everything though, thanks for creating this thread.

Update: I found I could resize how the image displays in the post without resizing the original and I added a link to it on @the_fried_egg as Sand Valley actually just retweeted it.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 07:40:37 PM by Brian Zager »

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Per Sand Valley, preview play on all 18 holes will begin on May 15, 2018.

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brian -
GCAer Dan Moore sent me some great photos he shot, which shows the construction progression of #14.

September, 2016


July, 2017


October, 2017


Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
I find the photographs of the short course more appealing than those of either big course.  Admittedly, it's a small sample and I've only played the first course. 

I believe it was the legendary Joe Hancock who stated that there's no money in doing less.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason Way's Geeked on Golf website has photos of all the holes on The Sandbox (short course): 

https://geekedongolf.com/2017/12/14/the-sandbox-closing-day-at-sand-valley/
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 03:32:46 PM by Morgan Clawson »

Brian Zager

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brian -
GCAer Dan Moore sent me some great photos he shot, which shows the construction progression of #14.
Sorry I didn't see this sooner.  I should have marked this thread to notify me on future replies.  Thanks for posting the additional photos.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread (esp Morgan)

I'm sitting back here in Australia thinking - I think I might need another visit to America ...

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
I recently made a return visit and got to play 13 holes rather than the 9 preview holes I saw last fall. The course is really impressive. So much fun to play and the fescue turf is outstanding. Can't wait to play 10-14!


I also got to play the Sandbox and it too is wonderful! All you need is a nine iron, wedge and putter. The Devil's a**hole bunker on 17 is legit!


The Sand Valley course by Coore and Crenshaw is as good as any I've played. I love the finish especially.


What a place.

Michael Wolf

  • Karma: +0/-0

I agree with the early comments on the design and potential of both Sand Valley and Mammoth Dunes. However, I was there this past weekend and a majority of the holes on Sand Valley were still being played with temporary greens due to significant trouble after the tough April weather. Much more sand than fescue in spots. SV emailed ahead of time to warn of their issues, and beers and sliders were $1.50 (not sure if they always are?). I would avoid SV for at least a few more weeks.


Erin Hills also had significant issues in several fairways, but the greens were mostly healthy aside from some patching they had just finished. (Erin postponed opening until last week).


The Kohler courses were in good shape from what I saw.


And Lawsonia was already close to summer form, shots rolling out almost everywhere. What a gem.


MW




Aaron Hanson

  • Karma: +0/-0

I agree with the early comments on the design and potential of both Sand Valley and Mammoth Dunes. However, I was there this past weekend and a majority of the holes on Sand Valley were still being played with temporary greens due to significant trouble after the tough April weather. Much more sand than fescue in spots. SV emailed ahead of time to warn of their issues, and beers and sliders were $1.50 (not sure if they always are?). I would avoid SV for at least a few more weeks.


Erin Hills also had significant issues in several fairways, but the greens were mostly healthy aside from some patching they had just finished. (Erin postponed opening until last week).


The Kohler courses were in good shape from what I saw.


And Lawsonia was already close to summer form, shots rolling out almost everywhere. What a gem.


MW


Thanks for sharing about the conditions Michael. I plan on getting back to SV in July and again in the fall. I look forward to seeing Mammoth and the Sandbox. I'm a little concerned with the pace of play comments I've seen in this thread. I understand why Erin Hills takes 5 hours to play, but SV should never be over 4 hours. The walk is somewhat challenging but certainly not that grueling.


I personally really enjoyed the Sand Valley course. It's pretty hard to lose a ball, yet scoring well isn't that easy. I thought the par 3s were bright spots, and really liked the closing 3 holes.

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