Different angles into par threes

[Tommy Williamsen]

The thirteenth hole at Ballyhack has five sets of tees. Three from what I will call a straight angle and two from a different angle. The same is true for the ninth hole at my old club CC of Woodmore. When designing for different angles Should architects design the green complexes to accommodate the different angles? Or could awkwardness be part of challenge?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike Devries has one of those up in Michigan.  Some controversy as the far right is harder to hold, but not sure why.


I just designed one up in MN, where tee placement combined with certain pin placements might block a straight shot.  We trust the super to place pin left when tee is right, and vice versa, but we can never be sure.


I would try to design some area of the green to receive a shot from one part of the tee.  I would never purposely try to design in awkwardness. But, if the angles are diverse enough, making some areas work better from different angles is easier than making the whole green about equally receptive from different angles. Of course, it takes a big green to have multiple sections.


Generally, greens do one thing well on the approach shot, favoring one or another angle or shot pattern. One of the basics is whether you have an up slope to help hold shots for the golfer.  If you think about it, a green can only slope up one way, unless a punch bowl funnel, which would make every angle play the same anyway, sort of defeating the purpose.  Of course, you can use side slopes to funnel a ball down to the pin, so maybe the ideal multi angle green slopes up to tees on one side, but is fashioned where golfers can use the side slope from the other.  Hard, but not impossible to do.

[JC Urbina]

Tommy,


Awkwardness is in the eye of the beholder.


The Dunes Club in Michigan a wonderful nine hole golf course has several tee shots that come in from different angles.  On the 2nd hole, the first par 3 has a green that accepts shots from two sets of tees that are set apart at almost a 90 degree angle. 


I have studied that green for years and have found no fault with using either tee.  The green sets up wonderfully from both angles and yet the green surface has all of the wonderful movements that I look for in a top tier green.


Would I design that into every green, likely not.  For the Dunes Club and the 2nd hole it works perfectly.


Most golfers have lost what Mackenzie called  "The spirit of the game"  I find the challenges or what you described as the awkwardness to be the true foundation of the game.  To peregrinate and discover all of the challenges that lay ahead. 

[Tom_Doak]

Well I just completed a project where every single green [not just the par-3's] is approached from two completely different angles, and generally, it was not hard to design them so that all of the hole locations accommodated both angles of approach.  We did have to limit ourselves a bit on the types of green design we could introduce with that concept, but the course does not lack for variety.  Sure, there are a few hole locations which work better from one angle than another, and they'll probably use that hole location more when playing the one way around ... but that's no big deal.


Can awkwardness be part of the challenge?  Absolutely, if you want it to be ... and if you don't mind being not the most popular architect.  I don't mind, myself.

[Peter Pallotta]

Sometimes, as an average golfer, I encounter a Par 3 angle and green where I think: "well, there must be *some* kind of shot that will get the ball close, and some type of player who can hit that shot, but I don't know what that shot is and that player is not me". Then I just try to hit it short middle, onto the fringe or, if I'm lucky, just barely onto the front of the green. That seems good enough, ie that the architect has left me at least the chance to hit a little chip and a putt for par.

[Thomas Dai]

Obvious can be boring, awkward rarely is and is usually challenging and memorable.
A nice aspect of playing into greens is when the pin position is such that you can't go directly at it or even near it, you have to aim away and try to somehow feed the ball in. And sometimes 20-30-40-50 ft away from a pin isn't a bad result. Putting is also a part of the game and putting out on an awkward green can also provide a challenge and interest.
Atb

[Carl Rogers]

Another example of multiple teeing angles on a par 3 is the 16th at the Goldenhorseshoe, an older RTJ Sr. in Williamsburg.  I do not think the various shots are awkward.

Tommy, the enormous size of the 13th green at Ballyhack, even as a double green with hole 15, for me reduces awkwardness.

At Riverfront, TD, created different angles for the forward tees at par 3's, holes 4 & 13.  They are short shots, some might say awkward because they are difficult.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Reminds me of Notah Begay III attending the grand opening of Fortune Bay.  He called me over to the par 3 13th, and complained he couldn't get it close.  He tried high fades, draws, high spin, low spin, low shots, etc. 


He suggested it was a bad design, and later conceded maybe it was just a bad pin position for where the tee was placed that day, and the way the wind was blowing that day.  He considered whether the pines caused gusty winds he couldn't predict, etc. 


Any architect who tells you he could possibly conceive of every angle/wind/pin/gust combination a golfer might face on those kind of holes has to be pulling your leg at least a little bit.  And in reality, there is probably not enough design/research time available on the typical project to allow one to do so.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Mike Devries has one of those up in Michigan.  Some controversy as the far right is harder to hold, but not sure why.

My guess is that you might be talking about nine at Kingsley. I find both sets of tees difficult. I've played the course a few times and hit tee shots from every tee. I don't ever seem to hit the correct shot.

[David Schofield]

Tobacco Road's 6th hole is a "shooting gallery" with tees arrayed wide to a wide but shallow green.  If the pin is set far right, the back tees are set far left, and vice versa. 


https://tobaccoroadgolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/tobacco-road-golf-course-map.jpg

[Pete_Pittock]

The second at Bandon Dune originally ran north along the slope of the dune, and was fairly level, instead of the current uphill shot square against the dune. For me it was fine in the winter wind, but a beech into the prevailing wind. The green is much more receptive from the current angle.

[Brett Wiesley]

Tobacco Road Hole #6 is another.  The Teeing ground is almost semicircular arrangement.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I like having optional tees from differing angles, even if one of them seems to be a bit awkward. Why aren't there more of them?

[Tom_Doak]

I like having optional tees from differing angles, even if one of them seems to be a bit awkward. Why aren't there more of them?

1.  It takes up more space, and most courses are short of space
2.  Cart path traffic issues to get to all the tees
3.  Some people want three or four sets of tees for each angle, and it starts to get ridiculous


We did one on the 11th at St. Andrews Beach, which I particularly like.  The difference in angle is only 30-40 degrees, but the green presents entirely differently because of a steep bank on the left flank, which sneaks in behind from the right-hand tee.

[Anthony_Nysse]

#11 at The Mines, another DeVries design in Grand Rapids has a south set of tees and a west set of tees.

[Ben Malach]

If I remember correctly the 10th at Highland Links has this feature.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I like having optional tees from differing angles, even if one of them seems to be a bit awkward. Why aren't there more of them?

1.  It takes up more space, and most courses are short of space
2.  Cart path traffic issues to get to all the tees
3.  Some people want three or four sets of tees for each angle, and it starts to get ridiculous


We did one on the 11th at St. Andrews Beach, which I particularly like.  The difference in angle is only 30-40 degrees, but the green presents entirely differently because of a steep bank on the left flank, which sneaks in behind from the right-hand tee.

I figured that space might be an issue, but hadn't thought of the cart path issue. It would get ridiculous to have to put three sets of tees for each set. The cart path is not an issue for either Woodmore and Ballyhack. If you got rid of either one of the tees the cart path would be the same.

[Scott Weersing]

No. 10 at Pacific Dunes has the high set of tees and the low set of tees. Both are great!

[Tom_Doak]

No. 10 at Pacific Dunes has the high set of tees and the low set of tees. Both are great!

Jesus you would think I could remember that one.


I'll be there Tuesday, though.  [Yay!]

[Joe Bausch]

It is probably a 50° difference or a bit more between the low and high tees at the par 3 8th at TFaz's The Ridge at Back Brook:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/RidgeatBB/pages/page_41.html?

[Jon Cavalier]

I've never seen this done better than it was with the par-3s at the Dunes Club.


Here's the second hole, from both angles...
Left tee:



Right tee:



A look back at both tees from the green:





Here's the sixth hole...
Lower-left tee (main tee area):



Upper right tee (main teeing area):



Far right tee (separate teeing area):



It's a really great setup, perfectly executed.

[Sean_A]

The iconic 8th at St Georges Hill is not unlike Jon's 3rd at Dunes Club.  Its a totally different tee shot from the far left compared to the tee behind the 7th green. 


Ciao

[Bill Weber]

I thought the 5th at Victoria National was brilliant. I didn't then or now have the game to play all the tees but would love to hear from Barney who does have the game and must have played nearly all.

[Jerry Kluger]

My favorite par 3 in the US is the 5th at Ballyneal which has many different angles and the various bunkers as well as hole locations make for a whole bunch of fun and challenges. 


The Golden Horseshoe in Williamsburg is an RTJ course and the 16th is a drop shot par 3 which you play from either straight on with the green much wider than deep or you play from 90 degrees to the left and slightly lower where the green is much deeper than it is wide.

[Jon Wiggett]

Not sure if they have already been mentioned but the 7th at Royal Birkdale plays as a mid iron to a long narrow green from a set of tees at green level from one set of tees but from the original tees which are considerably higher than the green and played at 90 degrees so as to make the green wide but shallow it plays as a shorter iron.


The other is the 1st at Lytham & St.Annes which you play either the regular tees in front of the pro-shop with a mid iron or the championship tees behind the pro-shop with a long iron. Both Open rota courses.


Jon