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David_Tepper

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Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« on: January 06, 2017, 03:59:12 PM »
Hot off the press:

https://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/next-on-the-tee-for-kyle-phillips

Is anyone familiar with the Cromvoirt course KP is designing/building in Holland?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 05:26:23 PM by David_Tepper »

Frank Pont

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2017, 09:10:21 AM »
Hot off the press:

https://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/next-on-the-tee-for-kyle-phillips

Is anyone familiar with the Cromvoirt course KP is designing/building in Holland?


Its a project that had been stalled for a long time, because the previous owners could not get a golf club founded with enough members to get the funding in place to afford KP. It was then bought by a wealthy new owner, who has the means required.


Building method is the same as how Swinkelsche and Stippelberg were built earlier in the same area, they are bringing up the local sand and trying to recreate heathland with imported heather brashings.


I also did some routings for the previous owner when they were considering other options to KP, the site is not perfect in that it is long and narrow, making lots of back and forth holes necessary. I don't think this will be another Kingsbarns, but it will be a welcome addition to good golf in the south of the Netherlands.


Here is a link to the contractor who is building the course, it has some pics, a masterplan and a drone movie:


https://www.josscholman.nl/projecten/golfbaancromvoirt/#
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 09:35:27 AM by Frank Pont »

Frank Pont

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2017, 09:19:00 AM »
This is the KP plan







And this was the routing I did for the previous owner:


« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 11:58:20 AM by Frank Pont »

David_Tepper

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2017, 11:46:51 AM »
Frank -

Thanks for the information. Sorry you did not get the work there.

DT

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2017, 06:52:20 PM »
What I like about the KP routing is that it goes out to the far end of the property very quickly and plays about out there, whereas the second nine stays closer to the clubhouse. Obviously, I don't know how the design will play out, but I'm usually not too keen on routings where it takes a long time to get away from the clubhouse. If the back 9 have a more intimate feel, that is fine with me.

In the KP routing there seems to be a possibility to go from 14 to 17 (or even play home on the 9th!), which is a mixed blessing. On one hand members will often want to cut a round short for various reasons, on the other hand those side-by-side holes 14-15-16 are a frustrating back and fro.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Frank Pont

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2017, 08:13:55 AM »
This is the KP plan from 2010







This is the KP plan from 2013







And this was the routing I did for the previous owner:





Found a more recent plan from KP for Cromvoirt.




Brett Hochstein

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2017, 02:03:21 PM »
Frank,


What's the water table depth there?  Guessing by the ponds in the plans that it is pretty close to the surface.  Plus that seems to be the case on any agricultural land in Holland.
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Frank Pont

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2017, 08:12:54 AM »
My guess would be about 1.5 meters (5 foot) below the surface

David Davis

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2017, 01:59:54 PM »
I wanted to bump this one. I was there with two of my colleagues, Jim and Brian recently. We had a wonderful tour of the work going on there and I was really surprised at the level of professionalism, investment and site in general. Especially for a new build in The Netherlands. Two of the more recent ones were on far worse sites with less than ideal results in my eyes. Both were aimed at very high end business market.


The site at Cromvoirt was flat sand based ground so almost ideal for building a course. They are putting in what can best be described as a heathland course and have imported a ton of heather which already looks wonderful even though it will be a couple years before it's growing in completely. The growing conditions are supposedly ideal. Over half of the course is seeded and set up, the practice facility is amazing and will be the best in The Netherlands by a long shot. Not too mention the extensive grass tees. The year round covered portion of the facility also has a bar etc there so they can make it really a inviting place to hang out and practice. The scale is huge for The Netherlands.


The owners aim is to create a "bucket list" course and he is certainly pulling out all the stops to do this. He a billionaire having made his money on starting up Airmiles and other similar programs so he's not "yet" worried about having the project make money. He lives right down the road so this is kind of his back yard.


I have to admit that it's an exciting project as far as I'm concerned. Kyle has been doing some great stuff, South Cape Owners Club is a wonderful place and his reno work at Cal Club is loved by many on this site (and off).


Cromvoirt will eventually receive another name (thankfully) as having another course that no-one outside of The Netherlands can pronounce is the last thing a "bucket list" course needs I suppose.


It's nice to visit at this stage and have the feeling they are doing everything right. The final parcel of land and holes which they are working on shaping now will be finished and seeded by the end of the summer, hoping for an opening in 2018.


Possible another great reason to come to The Netherlands for golf!
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Frank Pont

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2017, 05:02:32 PM »
David, what did you think of the routing?

David Davis

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2017, 10:47:38 AM »
David, what did you think of the routing?


Frank,


The holes I've seen look really good. There seems to be 3 plots of land and one was still largely a huge field of sand. My imagination is ok but not quite good enough to visualize perfectly how that last plot will look. I was driven around and they said here is the green for this hole and here is the green for that hole etc. Again the ones that are seeded already look excellent. Fairly large in scale I'd say. Interesting that the few trees they brought in were full grown and they have done extensive heather planting which even now looks like it will turn out really interesting from an aesthetic point of view at least.
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Frank Pont

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2017, 11:57:53 AM »
David,


I did not mean the individual holes, knowing KP I'm sure those will be good, I meant the routing.


Because the site is relatively small and tight (150 acres), the routing is very much back and forth, pretty much all in the same direction. When I worked on the routing I was able to improve it somewhat, but it was far from ideal.


Compared with Swinkelsche, which is 250 acres, there is much less change of direction.


Question is do people find a back and forth routing a weakness or do they focus on the individual holes?




Ulrich Mayring

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2017, 12:48:53 PM »
In exceptional circumstances it may actually be a feature, e. g. on TOC with the double greens and 1/18 fairway etc. Or if you have a links course with an out and back routing, but the inland holes are a bit higher, so you enjoy great sea views.

It really depends on the features of the site, but in most cases side by side holes definitely end up as a weakness. The reason is that a round of golf for me is always a journey. You start in some place and you want to get to another place. Much like a hiker, who either chooses a round trip trail or walks from point A to B. I haven't seen any hikes that go back and forth all the time. It more or less destroys the feeling of making progress and if you come to a place you've already been to, you can't help but think you're going round in circles.

On many golf courses with an awkward routing you can see this effect. I've played a course recently that had holes 1-15 on one side of the clubhouse. Then for the last three holes I had to go past the clubhouse and walk across the parking lot, passing my parked car and I really stood there wondering if I shouldn't just open the trunk and pack it in.

Ulrich
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 12:54:28 PM by Ulrich Mayring »
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

John Mayhugh

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2017, 01:39:09 PM »
Question is do people find a back and forth routing a weakness or do they focus on the individual holes?

I like Ulrich's description of a round as a journey.  Having the feeling that you are going back and forth hurts the experience and, I think, reduces some of the anticipation of future holes.

As an aside, there was one local course that I enjoyed taking my dog with me to play 9 holes.  However, she was confused when we had to walk holes back and forth that were adjacent to each other. 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 09:41:25 PM by John Mayhugh »

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2017, 01:41:47 PM »
Best Practice #17 for routing a course: listen to your dog.
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

John Mayhugh

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2017, 09:40:59 PM »
Best Practice #17 for routing a course: listen to your dog.

You could count on an adventurous routing!

David Davis

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2017, 04:36:24 AM »
David,


I did not mean the individual holes, knowing KP I'm sure those will be good, I meant the routing.


Because the site is relatively small and tight (150 acres), the routing is very much back and forth, pretty much all in the same direction. When I worked on the routing I was able to improve it somewhat, but it was far from ideal.


Compared with Swinkelsche, which is 250 acres, there is much less change of direction.


Question is do people find a back and forth routing a weakness or do they focus on the individual holes?




Frank,


Sorry for the misunderstanding. I don't think the site is that small to be honest. Didn't they purchase extra ground now? Don't quote me on that but I think they might have. You know one of my comments was regarding the scale of the place, and to me that seems pretty big. Definitely it's a open heathland type course characterized by fairly open vistas.


Maybe they didn't on the other hand but if that's only 150 acres I'm pretty impressed. How many was De Pan?


As an additional, I just saw the initial routing from 2013 and have to admit I'm confused a bit. I think they changed the routing of the 3rd plot quite a bit. Again I could be wrong and if so I really became disoriented there.


I'm almost certain those holes are no longer running right to left as we look at them on the card and as the initial design indicates but instead running more top to bottom/bottom to top. Time will tell, of course.



« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 04:43:46 AM by David Davis »
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Martin Lehmann

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2017, 04:42:14 AM »
This is going to be a fantastic golf course. Not sure about the location though.


I heard what the new name most likely will be. One with an excellent aftertaste!

Garland Bayley

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2017, 11:51:53 PM »
How can you have a fantastic golf course with that many stinking ponds in it?
Not a destination for the discerning sand based course player.
 :P
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Davis

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2017, 05:01:09 AM »
How can you have a fantastic golf course with that many stinking ponds in it?
Not a destination for the discerning sand based course player.
 :P


Guess that depends on the architectural work. In this country which is largely below sea level I believe those ponds are essential for drainage and to manage the water table which is obviously extremely high. I know at this site some are also a source of irrigation water that has a lower PH level than the river running close by. In short a necessary evil to manage the surrounding environment.


Discerning sand based course player...that's funny, never heard that one before. Don't think I've ever met one either.


I'm sure if you think about it you can come up with some other "fantastic golf courses" with a few ponds here and there. Think Seminole, Streamsong or pretty much anything in Florida.
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2017, 12:15:18 PM »

Guess that depends on the architectural work. In this country which is largely below sea level I believe those ponds are essential for drainage and to manage the water table which is obviously extremely high. I know at this site some are also a source of irrigation water that has a lower PH level than the river running close by. In short a necessary evil to manage the surrounding environment.


And yet Ran somehow found two near the sea to review that don't have ponds.

Quote

Discerning sand based course player...that's funny, never heard that one before. Don't think I've ever met one either.


Perhaps Ran is one given what he has reviewed in Netherlands.

Quote

I'm sure if you think about it you can come up with some other "fantastic golf courses" with a few ponds here and there. Think Seminole, Streamsong or pretty much anything in Florida.

Yes we have all heard of Florida, as one poster called it the land of the Doak 0.

Either the original routings from Kyle don't make them visible, or there were no ponds in play. Although I'm not familiar with Seminole and Streamsong, there may be a very different use of ponds there than what we are seeing in the above routings.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Davis

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2017, 01:05:58 PM »

Guess that depends on the architectural work. In this country which is largely below sea level I believe those ponds are essential for drainage and to manage the water table which is obviously extremely high. I know at this site some are also a source of irrigation water that has a lower PH level than the river running close by. In short a necessary evil to manage the surrounding environment.


And yet Ran somehow found two near the sea to review that don't have ponds.

Quote

Discerning sand based course player...that's funny, never heard that one before. Don't think I've ever met one either.


Perhaps Ran is one given what he has reviewed in Netherlands.

Quote

I'm sure if you think about it you can come up with some other "fantastic golf courses" with a few ponds here and there. Think Seminole, Streamsong or pretty much anything in Florida.

Yes we have all heard of Florida, as one poster called it the land of the Doak 0.

Either the original routings from Kyle don't make them visible, or there were no ponds in play. Although I'm not familiar with Seminole and Streamsong, there may be a very different use of ponds there than what we are seeing in the above routings.




Garland,


I'm not quite as skeptical as you are yet. What I've seen there looks pretty darn good for this little country and the owner's goal as I might have mentioned is to create a bucket list kind of course, not a championship course. The budget is bordering on carte blanche so the end result is only restricted by the creativity of Mr. Phillips and his team on the ground. The gentleman taking care of construction also did YAS Links among many others and is one of the best in the business. It's not a links course, it's in Den Bosch in the middle of the country, sand based ground is ideal for construction and whether there are ponds or not will certainly not make or break a great design. I've already provided you ample reasoning.


I guess your comment about Kyle's initial sketch not having them there, is indeed because they were either not colored in or he was at that stage still unaware of the severity of the water table and the type of restrictions this would create.


The course is aimed at being a heathland course, firm and fast fairways, ample heather and open vistas. Think courses like those in the Surrey on the London sandbelt. Some of which indeed will have ponds to deal with. My feeling is this course will be possible comparable to something like Queenwood, thinking of the more modern heathland designs. If you are familiar with that one then you will know exactly what I mean and how they work in some ponds for one reason or another.


Yes, Ran indeed made two nice reviews of courses in The Netherlands. Those were classic links courses and we have only a very small number of those. He's not yet reviewed Utrecht De Pan which is heathland as well, also no lakes there and definitely worthy of a review and IMO a top 100 world ranking.


In any case it's clear that you are not a fan of lakes/man made lakes on sand based golf courses. To each their own. I'm excited to see the finished product here and see what Kyle and team can do, also excited to have another excellent course added to this little country with only a small handful of world class courses.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

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Garland Bayley

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2017, 03:05:00 PM »
Perhaps you can enlighten us with a list of heathland courses with artificial ponds.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Davis

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2017, 05:46:36 PM »
Perhaps you can enlighten us with a list of heathland courses with artificial ponds.


I can give you 3 really good examples off the top of my head. Woking, West Sussex, these two are classics and both have ponds and Queenwood is a modern one.


I'll add that to my knowledge these courses are not in low areas where the water table is high like The Netherlands.
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David_Tepper

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Re: Kyle Phillips in LINKS Mag
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2017, 06:43:29 PM »
"heathland courses with artificial ponds"

Sunningdale Old, 5th Hole - from the club's website:

5th hole, 407 yards, par 4  A Drive from the high ground with bunkers and a pond to avoid. The pond is more of a hazard for the poorly hit second shot.
   
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 06:45:12 PM by David_Tepper »