[Jason Way]

The 16th on our Modern Great 18 is Streamsong Red #16, a par-3.

Bold.  That's the word.  At a resort that is jam-packed with bold architecture in an otherworldly setting, this hole stands out.  The lore is that the swale for this biarritz green was found, and refined into a new take on the template with blowout bunkers in front and a steep runoff left.  If you like great, big contours (and we do), then this one-shotter is for you.

As an added bonus, the setting of Red's #16 alongside the Blue course's #7 makes for one of the coolest spots in golf.  For me, it is one of those places that is so damn good that my geeky heart overflows into a joyful perma-grin.









Our runners-up – Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Bandon Dunes, Old Macdonald, Colorado Golf Club, Erin Hills, Kingsley Club, Desert Forest, Hudson National, Bayonne, Pacific Dunes

[Scott Szabo]

Add the 15th at Wildhorse in Gothenburg to the list.  One of a number of holes from the course that should be in the conversation.

Agreed - great hole on a great course.

[Jon Cavalier]

I also guess I can't be too critical of 15 at Black Diamond as I haven't played it but I know I can think of many better 15th holes.  Crooked Stick is an awesome par 5 as is the par 5 at Harbor Town.

Here are my thoughts for alternates for holes 10 thru 15

15:
Lost Dunes
Kingsley Club
Crooked Stick
We-Ko-Pa Saguaro
TPC Scottsdale
Harbor Town

Damn! I forgot about the 15th at Harbor Town.


Great suggestions, Josh (I haven't played Crooked Stick, so I can't opine on that one, but I really like all of your other choices for 15), and thanks for chiming in.

[Josh Tarble]

Good stuff JTarbs.  Thanks for pitching in, especially adding some new courses into the mix.  I have never heard of Woodland Country Club.  Care to share the scoop?

Woodland CC is here in Indianapolis, was an old Diddel course but they sold some land and had Dye basically re-do the entire thing.  Pretty much a Dye except the routing for some of the holes I believe. 

The 11th is a great short par 5.  The fairway has a distinct shelf on the left side and balls played even slightly right roll into a bowl on the right side of the fairway.

That's great because it doglegs right around some trees, so you need to be on the left side to have a look into the green.  Did I mention it was only about 490 or so downhill, so a good drive should leave around 200 yards into the green.  It's a great hole that's pretty easy to have a look at eagle, it's also incredible easy to take an X.

Great suggestions, Josh (I haven't played Crooked Stick, so I can't opine on that one, but I really like all of your other choices for 15), and thanks for chiming in.

Take the green at #7 on Crystal Downs and put it at the end of a reachable par 5. 

[Jason Way]

The 17th on our Modern Great 18 is Whistling Straits #17, a par-3.

For visual beauty and drama, it is tough to beat the set of par-3s at Whistling Straits, and the 17th is our favorite.  It plays south along the lake exposing it to the oft-stiff wind.  Multiple tee boxes allow for play from 165 yards, all the way back to 249 yards.  Named "Pinched Nerve", the seventeenth is capable of delivering acute pain to those whose tee shots are uncommitted. 

The green is contoured just enough that lag putting can be a real adventure.  After surviving the Straits to this point, a player who musters a par on this stout three-par feels victorious.  Our Modern course would not have felt complete without a hole from Pete Dye, and for us, this was a worthy choice.







Our runners-up – Friars Head, Sand Valley, Boston Golf Club, Sand Hills, Forest Dunes, Erin Hills, TPC Sawgrass, Bayonne, Ballyhack

[Jason Way]

The closer for our Modern Great 18 is Stonewall CC Old #18, a par-4. 

This one is a Jon Cavalier pick on a course that he enjoys very much.  I have not played it before, so I will just share his comments:

"Credit Tom Doak and crew for changing Tom Fazio’s original routing for this hole and creating one of the best finishers in golf.  The pretty tee shot plays to a wide but well defended fairway, but this hole is all about the greensite.  The green is fronted by deep bunkers but open to a ground shot from the left, and sitting mere feet from the old farmhouse and barn."












Our runners-up – Sand Hills, WeKoPa Saguaro, Black Forest, Sand Valley, Sebonack, Shadow Creek, Bayonne, Harbour Town, Old Macdonald


I am compiling all nominations for all Modern holes and will post that pool shortly.

[Matt Kardash]

I have never played Stonewall, but having seen it many times in photos I always thought it looked like the perfect 18th hole.
Since no one said anything about the 17th I guess I will chime-in. The 17th at WS has to be considered one of the great long par 3's of the world. Such a cool and creative hole built from nothing.

[Sven Nilsen]

The 17th holes at Pac, Bandon and Trails are world class, yet not one makes the honorable mentions list.

[Jason Way]

Alrighty, compilation of all mentioned holes here and on social media is below (our original runners-up have *).  Quite the pool of winner, methinks. 

A challenge and a question for you:

Challenge - Using the holes below (and any others you have played), and adhering to our one-hole-per-course rule, create a course that is better than ours.  If you're really feeling saucy, puff out your chest and tell us why it is better.

Question - Is it possible to create a course that is actually better to play than the best Moderns?  Returning for a moment to Jim Urbina's earlier post, would any course that we could conceive be more enjoyable to play than Sand Hills, Friar's Head, or Pacific Dunes?  Or would our Great 18s most likely fall prey to the tendency to pick too many memorable (and therefore difficult) holes?

Interested to get your perspectives. 

 #1 - Sand Hills
Honorable Mentions - Apache Stronghold*, Ballyneal, Bayside, Boston Golf Club*, Dunes Club, French Creek, Kingsley, Old Macdonald*, Old Sandwich, Streamsong Blue*, Spyglass, Sweetens Cove, Tobacco Road, Wolf Run
#2 - Sebonack
Honorable Mentions - Apache Stronghold*, Ballyhack, Ballyneal, Bandon Preserve, Boston GC, Desert Forest, Dismal Red, Erin Hills*, French Creek, Harbour Town, Hidden Creek, Honors Course, Kingsley Club*, Kinloch, Lost Dunes*, Old MacDonald*, Old Sandwich, Pacific Dunes, Radrick Farms, Rock Creek, Rustic Canyon, Sand Valley*, Snake River Sporting Club, Streamsong Blue*, Spyglass, Stone Eagle, Talking Stick North*, Wolf Point
#3 - Bandon Trails
Honorable Mentions - Arcadia Bluffs*, Ballyneal*, Black Forest*, Boston Golf Club*, Colorado GC*, CommonGround*, Erin Hills*, Kiawah Ocean, Mauna Kea, Old Macdonald*, Pacific Dunes*, Sand Valley*, Spyglass Hill*, Wade Hampton*
#4 - Bandon Dunes
Honorable Mentions - Dismal River Red, Dismal River White, Dunes Club*, Old Sandwich*, Pacific Dunes*, Sand Hills*, Spyglass Hill*, Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*, Sweetens Cove, World Woods Pine Barrens
#5 - Boston Golf Club
Honorable Mentions - Arcadia Bluffs, Bandon Dunes*, Blackwolf Run River, Cuscowilla, Old Sandwich*, Streamsong Blue*, Sweetens Cove*
#6 - Marquette Greywalls
Honorable Mentions - Apache Stronghold*, Bandon Dunes*, Crooked Stick, French Creek, Kinloch, Old Macdonald*, Old Sandwich*, Pacific Dunes*, Pikewood National*, Streamsong Blue*, The Golf Club, Wade Hampton*, Whistling Straits*
#7 - Old Macdonald
Honorable Mentions - Ballyneal*, Bandon Dunes*, Crooked Stick, Desert Forest*, Dunes Club*, Harbor Shores*, Old Sandwich*, Sand Hills, Sand Valley*,  Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*
#8 - Ballyneal
Honorable Mentions - Bandon Trails*, CommonGround*, Old Macdonald, Pronghorn Fazio, Sand Hills*, Sweetens Cove*, The Rawls Course*
#9 - Erin Hills
Honorable Mentions - Bandon Trails, Blackstone, Boston GC, Chambers Bay, Crooked Stick*, Friars Head*, French Creek*, Honors Course*, Monterey Peninsula Dunes, Old Macdonald*, Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*, Stone Eagle
#10 - Chambers Bay
Honorable Mentions - Ballyhack*, Boston Golf Club*, Colorado GC*, Harbor Shores*, Kiawah Ocean, Monterey Peninsula Shore, Pacific Dunes*, Rock Creek Cattle, WeKoPa Saguaro*, Wolf Run
#11 - Lost Dunes
Honorable Mentions - Ballyneal*, Bayonne*, Blackwolf River Run, Boston Golf Club*, Cuscowilla, Desert Forest*, Monterey Peninsula, Old Macdonald*, Sand Hollow*, Sebonack*, Whistling Straits, Woodlands CC
#12 - Kingsley Club
Honorable Mentions - Arcadia Bluffs*, Ballyneal, Bandon Dunes*, Black Forest*, Chechessee Creek, Erin Hills*, French Lick Dye, Honors Course*, Old Memorial, Pacific Dunes*, Royal Isabella, Talking Stick North*, The Rawls Course*, Wolf Creek*
#13 - Pacific Dunes
Honorable Mentions - Arcadia Bluffs, Atlanta CC, Butler National, Honors Course, Kingsley Club*, Old Macdonald*, Old Sandwich*, Sand Hollow*, Streamsong Blue*, Wade Hampton*, WeKoPa Saguaro*, Whistling Straits*
#14 - Friar’s Head
Honorable Mentions - Black Diamond Ranch, Brickyard Crossing, Butler National, Chambers Bay, CommonGround*, Desert Forest*, Dormie Club*, Erin Hills, Kiawah Ocean*, Kingsley Club*, Lost Dunes*, Old Macdonald*, Radrick Farms, Sand Hills*, Secession, Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*, Talking Stick South*
#15 - Black Diamond Ranch
Honorable Mentions - Bandon Dunes, Bandon Trails, Chambers Bay*, Crooked Stick, Diamond Springs, Erin Hills*, Friars Head*, Harbor Town, Kingsley Club, Lost Dunes*, Old Macdonald*, Sand Hollow*, Shadow Creek, Shepherds Crook, Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*, The Rawls Course*, TPC Scottsdale, WeKoPa Saguaro*, Wildhorse, World Woods Pine Barrens
#16 - Streamsong Red
Honorable Mentions - Ballyneal*, Bandon Dunes*, Bayonne*, Colorado Golf Club*, Desert Forest*, Erin Hills*, Hudson National*, Kingsley Club*, Old Macdonald*, Pacific Dunes*, Poipu Bay, Sand Hills*
#17 - Whistling Straits
Honorable Mentions - Ballyhack*, Bandon Dunes, Bandon Trails, Bayonne*, Boston Golf Club*, Dormie Club, Erin Hills*, Forest Dunes*, Friar’s Head*, Manele, Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills*, Sand Valley*, TPC Sawgrass*
#18 - Stonewall CC Old
Honorable Mentions - Bayonne*, Black Forest*, Harbour Town*, Kapalua Plantation, Old Macdonald*, Sand Hills*, Sand Valley*, Sebonack*, Shadow Creek*, WeKoPa Saguaro*

[Terry Lavin]

The 17th holes at Pac, Bandon and Trails are world class, yet not one makes the honorable mentions list.

All great holes with a decided bias for minimalist designs, particularly with reflect to the Bandon courses. At least one of the four courses is mentioned as a winner or runner up for EVERY HOLE 1-18.


Now, Bandon is my favorite place I've played and I think there is only one stupid hole on the property, but this list is a little too Bandoncentric. Having said that, my buddy Sven chimes in by noting that 17 at Trails and Pac are world class but didn't get an honorable mention.  Sorry, President Trump, they're both honorable mentions.


😆

[Sven Nilsen]

Terry:


They are now.


I might beg to differ on the Bandon focus.  The list doesn't have Trails #2, Pac #2, Trails #4, Trails #5, Old Mac #5, Trails #7, Pac #7, Pac #8, Trails #11, Bandon #11, Pac #11, Trails #13, Pac #14 or Pac #18, which are all worthy of at least being included in the conversation.


Sven

[Scott McWethy]

Eleven at Lost Dunes is one of my personal favorites of holes that we've built.  I just loved the green setting and the half-bowl-within-a-bowl top right hole location.  Hitting a long approach over that deep bunker and using the hill at the back to contain it on the upper level is a real thrill.


During the construction project, that deep bunker acquired a name, which I don't believe is well known.  After one of my visits, the client Jeff Shearer was giving me a ride back to Chicago to go to the airport, and I mentioned to him that my wife and I had decided to divorce, so I said, "If I dig any really deep bunkers, maybe that's why."  We had always planned to make the bunker on #11 deep, but Jeff didn't know that, and when he went back out on his next visit and saw the bunker, he asked my lead associate Tom Mead what my wife's name was?

Tom, the 11th hole at Lost Dunes is an incredible hole.  I've played the course two times and on both occasions (since there wasn't anyone behind us) once we got done with the 11th hole we went back and played it again.  It is framed so well and the second shot is so much fun.  I am curious about something.  I think I read that when Donald Ross was designing Oakland Hills, it was the 11th hole that he plotted first and then designed the rest of the course around that.  I'd like to know if you've done anything like that with your designs.  Have you ever found a piece of land where in one area you envisioned a spectacular hole and then designed the rest of the course around that?  Maybe that happens more than I would think, but would be interested in getting your take.

[corey miller]

Doesn't Pine Valley have close to 18 memorable and interesting holes? It is difficult but does it really "suffer" because of that?

As for Jim Urbina's thoughts on Friar's Head (I know they don't like the course talked about) is the genius of the place the totality rather than the individual parts (holes) as there are only four nominees in your list? Ballyneal which I think may be "rated" lower has eight?

Bias?

[Thomas Dai]

From viewing the photos all these holes would seem to have interesting, challenging, thought provoking greensites. Guess there's a message there.
atb

[Peter Korbakes]

Sven--


While I agree with you that there are many holes from the property that could be representations of their respective number, like Terry said-- a hole was represented as a winner or a runner up on every hole. I believe that says quite a bit.


My quarrel was with 17. I think the 17th at Dormie is akin to the 7th at Pine Valley. I don't understand why the 17th isn't discussed more as a great hole in modern day architecture. From tee to green, each shot is worth high value for a birdie to be earned given the hole is a touch under 500. If you hit it in the fairway, you're faced with a tough decision whether to take on the carry or not.


I think it's one of the better C&C holes out there.

[BCowan]

My quarrel was with 17. I think the 17th at Dormie is akin to the 7th at Pine Valley. I don't understand why the 17th isn't discussed more as a great hole in modern day architecture. From tee to green, each shot is worth high value for a birdie to be earned given the hole is a touch under 500. If you hit it in the fairway, you're faced with a tough decision whether to take on the carry or not.

+1, couldn't agree more.  #17 at Dormie is world class IMO.  Probably the best par 5 i've played since 3rd at UofM has tree issues due to safety concerns. 

[Sven Nilsen]

My quarrel was with 17. I think the 17th at Dormie is akin to the 7th at Pine Valley. I don't understand why the 17th isn't discussed more as a great hole in modern day architecture. From tee to green, each shot is worth high value for a birdie to be earned given the hole is a touch under 500. If you hit it in the fairway, you're faced with a tough decision whether to take on the carry or not.

Wasn't this at least partially your list? 

[Tom_Doak]

 I am curious about something.  I think I read that when Donald Ross was designing Oakland Hills, it was the 11th hole that he plotted first and then designed the rest of the course around that.  I'd like to know if you've done anything like that with your designs.  Have you ever found a piece of land where in one area you envisioned a spectacular hole and then designed the rest of the course around that?  Maybe that happens more than I would think, but would be interested in getting your take.

Scott:


I am starting to work on a book about routing, but it may take a while.


I'm skeptical of the Ross story, although it is often the case that a particular hole stands out from early in the routing process and is central to every subsequent iteration.


There are four holes at Pacific Dunes that were part of my first routing attempt [before I'd walked the property]:  the 6th, 10th [though it was a short par-4 to the same green site], 11th, and 16th.  You could say that the routing revolved around the 16th and its neighbors in that little bowl of dunes, and you wouldn't be entirely wrong, but I didn't think of it in those terms.  I just knew that the bowl was central to the routing, and the 16th, jammed up against one side of the bowl, was a keeper.


On the other hand, at Rock Creek in Montana, we had thousands of acres to choose from and it was hard to know where to begin.  The very first hole I "saw" on the topo maps was the par-5 10th, and when we went out to see it we thought it was a winner ... so it is true that the rest of the course evolved from there.


Sometimes we have to give up the hole we fell in love with in order to make the rest of the routing work out, but if we are really attached to a hole, we are usually pretty resourceful in finding a way to keep it -- even if some of the surrounding holes are compromised as a result.

[Jason Way]

My quarrel was with 17. I think the 17th at Dormie is akin to the 7th at Pine Valley. I don't understand why the 17th isn't discussed more as a great hole in modern day architecture. From tee to green, each shot is worth high value for a birdie to be earned given the hole is a touch under 500. If you hit it in the fairway, you're faced with a tough decision whether to take on the carry or not.

After playing Dormie for the first time last week, I concur with the love for the 17th.  In fact, every hole in the stretch from 14-18 was a winner for me.  All very cool visually, and all of the risk-reward sort that make birdies and doubles real possibilities.  The 17th has been added to the HMs.

[Jim Nugent]

The course with the most honorable mentions is... not Sand Hills or Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal...

... it's Old Mac.  If I counted right, Old Mac got 13 hm's, plus one hole among the great 18s.  Pacific Dunes looks like it might be second, with 8 hm's and one great 18.  I think Sand Hills has one great 18 and 6 hm's, i.e. half as many honorable mentions as Old Mac. 

 

[Tom_Doak]

The course with the most honorable mentions is... not Sand Hills or Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal...

... it's Old Mac.  If I counted right, Old Mac got 13 hm's, plus one hole among the great 18s.  Pacific Dunes looks like it might be second, with 8 hm's and one great 18.  I think Sand Hills has one great 18 and 6 hm's, i.e. half as many honorable mentions as Old Mac.

I've been working on an eclectic of my own courses, in response to Jason's call for other attempts.


In my own quick version, Old Macdonald had seven candidates for the eclectic:  1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 11 and 16.  I'm guessing it got more support in Jason's poll because it's the only modern course with all of the template holes that everyone here is conditioned to respond to.


Numbers of candidate holes from my other courses [in my own internal poll of one]:


9:  Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle Dunes and Tara Iti
8:  Cape Kidnappers, Dismal River and St. Andrews Beach
7:  Ballyneal, Old Macdonald and Streamsong


I'm surprised that Ballyneal [and Rock Creek, with only six holes] didn't finish quite as high, but sometimes it's just the case that certain holes dominate the conversation because they are clear standouts.  Old Macdonald is the opposite; there is no agreement on one hole being the best.

[Josh Tarble]

16:  I don't like the 16th at Streamsong Red at all.  I just don't think it works. It's visually spectacular but I don't think it plays great.  I'll be honest though, I think the biarritz is the dumbest of all the template style holes in that it doesn't work for modern golf.

My nominations:
We-Ko-Pa Saguaro
TPC Sawgrass
RiverMont
Scottsdale National
Whistling Straights

17: I like the 17th at Whistling Straits a lot.  I'm just not sure I'd call it the best hole there.  I think I like a few of the par 4s better, and I know I like the 12th better as a par 3.

My nominations:
TPC Scottsdale
TPC Sawgrass
Streamsong Blue


18: Looks like a good hole.  I think we all know John loves it  I haven't played it so can't comment.  When I compile my course, mine will be Harbour Town

My nominations:
Harbour Town
TPC Sawgrass

I'm going to start compliling mine, not sure I have played enough moderns to be really good but I think I can put together an interesting list.

[Peter Korbakes]

Sven- partially, yes. Jason asked of a list of my favorites. pretty sure i included a hole from the bandon property myself, with my additional favorite moderns. Although when it came down to final selection time, I wasn't making the final decision. I think Jason was selecting holes based on flow and so on and so forth. Regardless, in the dead of winter i loved the practice.


I'd love to hear what your favorite hole, representing that number is from the bandon property. Interesting enough, a few years ago i tried that and i believe Trails/OM led the way while if you asked me my preferences for courses, I'd probably say Pacific-Trails-OM. Funny how that worked out.

[Sven Nilsen]

Peter:


If you search the back pages there are a number of threads that do exactly what you described.  You'll get more than my opinion on it (which probably has changed a bit since then) if you find them.


I will note that the 8th at Pacific is one of my favorite holes to be a caddie for on the resort.  Starting with the sneak peak at the day's pin from the 7th tee, you start thinking about how you're going to try to play it.  Its a hole that can change dramatically depending on the wind direction, not only off of the tee but also on the type and angle of approach shot.  The back portion of the green is a great bail out option, and a ton of fun when the pin is set there. 


One of the reasons it gets overlooked is that most people's experiences with the hole are fairly one dimensional, limited to one or two tries into the same wind.  There was a thread a little while back that touched on the 11th at Bandon in the same light.  To really appreciate the design here, you need to experience a variety of the pin locations with both the wind coming at you and at your back, and even with no wind (which does happen on occasion).  As an aside, this is part of the inherent flaw in these types of conversations.  No one has played all of the great modern holes in all of the conditions that highlight their brilliance.  And because of this the default is to rely on the wow factor, which is why we remember holes like the 4th and 13th more than we do the 8th.


I've described it as the hole that does the most with the least.  Its a hole you have to think your way through on every shot, and even though it looks pretty benign compared to the rest of the eye candy out there, it can sneak up on you pretty quickly.


Sven

[Terry Lavin]

Sven,


You have the gift of caddying there all year. That alters the perspective. Probably skews it. But what you describe is a combination of design, routing and variable wind and weather. That's the very root of golf but most of us retail guys experience it on only an episodic basis.

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